DI-AA Final Four set

Dartmouth fullback Madison Hughes slots a second-half conversion on Brophy Field. (Photo: Bing Guan)

(Hanover, NH) Three former CPD squads - Dartmouth, Tennessee, and San Diego State - as well as 2011 champions Davenport will compete for the 2012 DI-AA National Championship at Salt Lake City's Rio Tinto Stadium, May 18th & 19th. All four emerged as victors from the Emirates USA Rugby DI-AA College Playoffs last weekend.

On Saturday, Dartmouth cruised through Shippensburg 75-5 to advance to the Sunday quarterfinals alongside Stony Brook, who edged Northeastern 24-22. Wing Eric Otoigiakhi and no. 8 Andrew Kozak built an early 12-0 lead for the Seawolves, but the Big Green roared back with three tries in fifteen minutes to make it 22-12 at half. After the whistle, Dartmouth recycled possession in Stony Brook's half for twenty more unanswered points and a 42-12 win at home.

Freshman fullback Madison Hughes proved a considerable asset to Dartmouth's offense - the Junior All-American had two assists and twelve points from the boot. The day before, he combined for eighteen points against Shippensburg before being subbed out early in the second half.

Davenport clashed against Wisconsin in the Midwest quarterfinals - both teams rolled through their Round of 16 opponents, walloping Texas 87-0 and Missouri 49-3, respectively.  Wisconsin played tough defense in the first half, limiting the scoring to penalty kicks from both sides and a try from DU flanker Ryan Hargraves. Davenport held a narrow 8-6 lead at halftime, but blew up after the whistle - All-American flyhalf JP Eloff scored two tries after the whistle, while Hargraves and lock Demecus Beach dotted down as well. Badger no. 8 Andrew Hanske bulled through for Wisconsin's only try in the closing minutes, but Davenport left College Grove with a 34-11 win and their second DI-AA Final Four in two years.

In Knoxville, Tennessee defeated Maryland 47-13, while Florida State defeated in-state rival Florida 34-12 in the Round of 16. In the Southern quarterfinals, UT established an early lead with tries from centers Jack Johnstone and Nick Evans, but FSU exploited Volunteer penalties to tie 20-20 at halftime. Following a UT penalty kick, flanker Greg Kraus went over to make it 27-23 for the Seminoles' first and last lead of the match - three unanswered tries from Tennessee ended it 45-27. (Of note was the Volunteers' balanced attack - out of five tries, three came from the backrow and two from the backline.) 

Finally, San Diego State took on UC Santa Barbara in Palo Alto, CA, after victories over Santa Clara (59-14) and Oregon State (37-27), respectively. SDSU took a commanding lead and never let up - UCSB wing John Gallo, who totaled 24 points in the previous day's match, was limited to two conversions and a penalty by the Aztecs. With the score at at 33-25 in the final quarter, UCSB was within a converted try of their first lead, but SDSU pulled away with late scores from center Frank Ramos (his second) and Thomas Hebard, winning 47-25.

The Aztecs' head coach, Matt Hawkins, is SDSU's third in four years. Hawkins, the most capped sevens player in Eagles history, has temporarily put his playing career on hold due to commitments to San Diego State and Serevi Rugby. 

In two weeks, Davenport will take on Dartmouth at Rio Tinto, while Tennessee will challenge San Diego State in May 18th's semifinals. The winners will advance to the next day's final to determine the 2012 DI-AA National Champions.

Comments

[Loud & Clear]

The message to CPL (D1-AA) coaches is loud and clear! Does your program need a boost? Need to get your alumni excited about your program and writing checks? Want the school newspaper to say something positive about your rugby program and remove the memory of the story they did on how the team was destroyed by an obscure university named Life? Tired of explaining to your squad the Cal....or BYU...(fill in excuses)?

DROP DOWN A DIVISION AND WALTZ INTO THE FINAL 4!

[Loud & Clear]

should say "CPD (D1-A) coaches"

[history repeating??]

Somewhat similar to when Stanford forfeited to Cal years ago after making the final four in D1 only two seasons prior and then played in the national title match and if I'm not mistaken won DII the following season.

[Pete M]

Are these games to be broadcast on Fox Succker Plus or any other network? Thanks

[Bing Guan]

Not to my knowledge, but the NSCRO Championships and Arizona/CSU (D1-A) aired very recently on Fox Soccer Plus. It seems they'll be airing the DI & DII Club semis and finals, but not DI-AA or DII championships.

[what is your point]

Loud and Clear- yes, winning the Ivy League means more to Dartmouth alum than winning D1A. But they didn't seem to do too bad the last time the went up against elite opponents if I remember correctly...

[Not a hater.]

Winning a B division championship isn't anything to brag or get excited about. Complaining that someone else dropped down is even worse. If you're good enough to complain, play up.

If being a small school is your limitation, I'm ok with that. But play in the small school conference. Otherwise, play up.

[College]

Not a hater
Why should they play up when it isn't a level playing field?
Davenport is going to win D1AA, and Lindenwood D2 with stacked decks. Schools like them, Life, Arkansas State and BYU should just play in their own league, the Mickey Mouse school conference would be a good name. That way, real schools with kids of real college age and real education standards can be left to play in their own conference.

[Frustrated Rugby Fan]

We have Glendale to thank for the Club Championships broadcasted on FSP. USA Rugby had very little involvement in that arrangment.

If the college finals were at Infinity Park like the NSCRO was. They too would have most likely been broadcasted as well. You can pretty much guarantee Glendale will get the USA vs Georgia game broadcasted as well. Unless of course USAR actually strikes a deal with a network. Wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

Unfortunately for us rugby fans. We don't have anywhere near that sort of guarantee for the Italy game in Houston...

[Anon]

Since when aren't BYU and Arkansas State "real schools"? I can live with people lambasting NAIA schools because they're petty assholes, but BYU and Arkansas State are both NCAA Division 1 universities that are ranked by any number of publications. Hell, BYU is ranked as the 71st-best national university in the country by US News & World Report.

[Not a hater.]

College

While I don't necessarily agree with your assumption as to the appropriateness of all of those program, two wrongs don't make a right. I'd rather lose to a falsely loaded team, than be king of the B division.

[college rugby]

The college premier league is dead. More schools are dropping out. The so called B championship is being pursued because the premier thing sucks. USAR sucks at running it, so the B championship becomes the better option today, but not in the future.

USA Rugby is losing control of college rugby. The teams will decide which division is the A division. USAR will still have their national championship and I am sure Life and Davenport will enjoy themselves.

[Bruce McLane]

I thought CPD seemed good this year, wish Cal gave it the extra year but still really good nonetheless and the teams are deserving. Let's see how it plays out.

[Loud & Clear]

2011 - CPD declared the greatest thing to happen to college rugby in decades. Anyone stating facts that it was premature and that there were weak teams in the competition were roundly dismissed as ignorant and pessimistic.

2012 - CPD loses its biggest cheerleader and the premier college program in the country and it is declared DOA. A half dozen or more teams abandon the competition and join newly formed college conferences, which are declared as the greatest thing to happen to collegiate rugby in decades.

2013 - ?????

[college fan]

I think some teams will want to stay in the CPD. Where is K-town going? Life they really need it. Ark state tried to get into the SEC and were laughed at, they're staying. Central Washington is a team that might like the CPD. St Mary's doesn't have a conference, they are a candidate to stay. The poor schools like Delaware, Rutgers, Wyoming, CSU, Davis etc might want to stay in, they aren't going to win championships at any division and might as well play winless at the highest level.

Looks to me like lots of teams will want to stay in the CPD.

But 6-8 big brands schools will also leave. It looks to be up in the air if the CPD continues. The CPD can add Davenport, the other D1aa finalist just left the CPD if valid reasons.

[Playoff Observer]

The D1-A East Conference and the West Conference seem to be working well for their constituent teams, providing reasonable competition and a 7-game league schedule with reliable competitors and some name-brands among the mix. The Mid-South has been, unfortunately, sort of a step-child since the beginning of the league, with a short schedule and a somewhat odd mixture of power teams (Life & ASU) with schools distant geographically and not really in their class from a rugby standpoint. And with the departure of the other South-East schools, the conference became even more "unusual."

Unfortunately, this season also brought the departure of Cal, bringing a Mid-South flavor to the Pacific Conference as well.

So, for the East and West, the thing is working pretty much as planned, while for the Pacific and Mid-South, things are rocky and don't look to improve anytime soon.

On the other hand, for St. Mary's, their schedule hasn't changed much and their performance has them hosting Utah for a berth in the national semi-finals--not a bad outcome. It's the same for Life and ASU, with a good shot at the semis with good performances this weekend.

And, for BYU, things aren't much different than every other year since 2006, with a likely berth in the national finals in the offing.

So what's to complain about? All in all, it could'a been a lot worse. The best teams in the country still seem to have a good shot at the final 4. And Cal has taken their marbles and gone home.

[Competitors Train While Others Brand]

Say all you want about branding and how creating quasi-BCS conferences with a discount group rate on socks from World Rugby Shop will confuse students and fans into thinking there's a big bowl game going on down at the rec fields, but let's not pretend that DIA hasn't succeeded in getting more matches between the strongest programs and best players in the country, as well as more matches with the teams that actually want to front up and take them on.

I don't know about products and brands and marketing and synergy and lovemarks and such, but there is good rugby and some great players in plenty of DIA matches. Anyone disputing that is either delusional or just unwilling to watch the video that's available out there. The same cannot be said of some of the vaunted DIAA conference championships and rivalries.

DIA is only a failure if you can honestly say as a supporter of the game that it's better to have a bunch of reserve-rate players playing games in the colors of schools you see playing football on TV than games between the best legitimate teams. It's fine if the conferences want to set up overhyped rivalries between the big rival universities up the road from each other with no rugby tradition instead of getting waxed by the BYUs and Lifes. But let's not be like "college fan" above and mock "poor" schools who take on the best week in and out (some of them winning a few) instead of ducking out to play second-class schedules and invent little trophies to win so they don't have to improve.

There is no getting around the fact that 1) The quality of rugby on the field is a big part of the sport's ability to go forward in the country, and 2) small "no-name" schools are going to be a presence in rugby because the administrators and students at top major-sport schools aren't going to be as interested in rugby. Why waste time beging Alabama or Duke to care about rugby when there are plenty of schools where it's already strong and well-supported?

Overheard in no BCS athletic director's office ever anywhere:
"Wait, so you mean your frat boys are playing the frat boys from that school our football team plays every year, but in rugby instead? Who cares what it looks like! Please take all this money I had set aside for football."

[Fratboys]

I agree with CTWOB that 99% of D1-AA teams are just a bunch of weekend warriors training 2 nights a week and putting it out there on Saturday. If there is a big frat function or the opportunity to go skiing for a week in Aspen, then the coach will be hearing some choice excuses from some of his players on why then can be there for the big @#U vs. &*State match down at the field behind the quad with the PVC pipe goal posts.

[It takes all kinds]

Why so much hate for people who don't play elite rugby? Is it impossible to tout the virtues of CPD rugby and the players, coaches, and schools who participate in it without being so contemptuous of those who do not?

You sound like a bunch of Brian Lowes...

[Competitors Train While Others Brand (Or, Not Everybody Has To Be The Best, But Then You're Not the Best)]

I don't think anyone is saying "all kinds" shouldn't be able to play rugby or deserve contempt. The point is that people calling the DIA competition (or at least many of its teams) inferior to the DIAA conferences are out of touch with the differences in the commitment and performance of athletes across the two levels. If a club at Big U. wants to play in DIAA or DII, then go on, but it's dishonest and counterproductive to try to sell DIAA as a superior or even similar competition in terms of on-field quality and training rigor.

I, for one, actually assume the DIA haters in college rugby are all too aware of the difference in quality between divisions, which is why teams are bundling themselves into contrived conferences and talking about marketing to avoid getting a beating from teams with a serious training schedules and a culture of performance. I am sure that is more fun to tell girls you finished third in some football-style conference than it is to explain getting beat by 40 in the TU quarterfinals every year by some off-brand school. Having second-tier teams avoid top teams is fine, and often a good idea for everyone involved (sort of the rationale for DIA's creation, in fact), but don't try to have it both ways by hanging out in DIAA and then claiming your conference is a better competition than the top level. That's like the social player who stumbles around the bar talking about how he'd be playing in tests if he wanted to train with a big club.

I am not foolish enough to back some of Brian Lowe's less-than-tactful tirades here, but somewhere in his infamous and poorly executed "drek" rant was the seeds of a point about how we have too many people running their mouths about rugby at the top level without contributing anything positive to the sport. Yes, I understand that the people in this online community probably contribute plenty, but there do also seem to be a lot of bitter attempts here to undermine and discount the best examples and performances in American rugby.

There is a place for top, middle, and lower levels of play in college rugby as in other age grades, but let's have a little respect and admit where the best rugby is being played. In college, it's in DIA, no matter what you think of the programs' BCS rankings or admission profiles. It's okay to admit that too.

[College#3]

No one is selling D1AA as a better standard of rugby to D1A. Its quite obvious that D1A has the better teams. I think D1A should be for schools that are able to run their team as a varsity sport and anyone else that wants in. There has to be a place for the BYU, Life, Davenport, Lindenwood, Penn State, Kutztown etc.

Teams like mine work hard within the context of rugby being just a club sport. There are no kegs on the side of the field and my players train six days a week. What vexes us the most is when you hear coaches that refer to teams like mine as being 'automatics' or being entitled because we are a BCS school.

Just because you sit in an air conditioned office, have access to whatever players you want (no matter what their age) doesn't give you the right to say we are a bunch of entitled frat boys.

This is the reason so many teams are turning their backs on USA Rugby and and are taking control of their game.

[D1-AA better competition than D1-A? Who said that?]

Where did anyone say that D1AA conferences are more competetive than D1A? D1A is significantly better from a pure rugby standpoint and there is really no way to dispute that. But it is also filled with schools whose rugby teams have significant advantages over 95% of the other college teams out there. I don't know how many times this has to be explained, but schools in the SEC of ACC or Big Ten don't need to try to attract applicants by offering in-state tuition to out of state rugby players or attract international students by having a South African laden rugby team. So these schools are using the advatages they do have, which are ready-made collegiate rivalries and potential marketability. Whether you realize it or not, these conferences are increasing visibility of rugby on the campuses of these schools, getting more crossovers to come out for the sport, and increasing the level of competition. Hopefully D1A continues to exist, because teams like Life, Lindenwood, Davenport, Arkansas St., and Kutztown need somewhere to play and Life winning by 200 points over Central Florida in the SIRC isn't going to benefit anybody. There can be dual goals here- increase the level of play on the field and increase the level of interest in the sport. D1-A helps with the first goal. D1-AA helps with both the first and second, but primarily the second.

[Not a hater.]

I don't care if someone plays in the B division. There is no shame in that. It is probably cheaper and more entertaining. Just don't gloat about winning the B division "national championship." If you're so good, play up.

[B Division]

So should the football teams at Mt. Union and Wisonsin-Whitewater not be able to brag about winning NCAA D3 national championships because they didn't beat alabama along the way?

[Playoff Observer]

So are there or are there not objective standards for how a team gets to play in D1-AA or DII? I know that Utah Valley University has maybe 30,000 students (and yet has no football program at all) but plays in USAR Division II. It's clearly a "club" program staffed by volunteers, but, based on the student body size, it seems mis-cast as a Division II program. UVU has a "minimalist" athletic department compared to, say, BYU or Utah, but it's hard to get around the size of the student body compared with other division II schools in the final four.

I'm just curious as to the rationale one can use to objectively decide just where a program should compete.

[Not a hater.]

@ "B Division". Winning the "small school" conference is worthy of bragging. However , if Mt Union or anyone else in your example is the size of Alabama,then sack up and move up before bragging.

St. Mary's is a good example. It is a program that could run the table in the B division and rest on it's size as being an excuse to be down. It plays up, and loses but has bragging rights. (And no, Im not a St Mary's hack. I played for a very good B division team. But we were just that, a B division team, where I drank beer, sang, and didn't pretend I was elite).

[Sergeant Hulka]

It really doesn't matter how big the athletic departments are at any school competing in rugby. These clubs run on their own budget, not the AD's budget. D1-AA or D2? Doesn't matter as far as budgets, staff, field availability. And really, the whole D1-A division for a club sport is pretty extraordinary when you think about it. No other college sport program has a national 'super conference.' That's what this is, and the clubs have to be able to afford to be in it, regardless of student body head count or size of the athletic department (which really has absolutely no bearing on 99% of college rugby clubs). Rugby D1-A is the equivalent of the top 4 football teams from the Pac12, Big10, Big12, SEC, ACC, and BigEast competing in one conference. That would be unheard of, yet rugby clubs of certain means and desire make it happen.

[Access]

It is about access to athletes coupled with coaching, and rugby programs/clubs are going about acquiring it through different ways.

Teams like Cal, Life, Ark State, Davenport and Lindenwood are doing it through massive school support in the form of access and/or financial incentives via scholarships, relaxed admission standards or financial incentives like in-state tuition.

Teams like BYU and St Mary's are doing it mostly via access to great HS rugby athletes near their campus (BYU also has a ccess to mature Pacific Islanders as a byproduct of LDS proselytizing in the region).

Teams with massive make student bodies have to do it by creating a culture and perception that it is more than the other options on campus for an athlete. This isn't easy with little budget or access, so the formation of conferences to play rivals may help recruit and retain athletes. It will take time to see if big time conferences for rugby improves play to the standard of teams with massive support from their universities.

[It's Okay To Respect the Top Tier No Matter Where You Play]

If you really have to ask, "Where did anyone say that D1AA conferences are more competetive than D1A?" you must be new here. There is plenty of back catalogue on this site about how the bottom half of D1A must be inferior to this or that DIAA competition or team, or even that DIA is a joke in general because every match is not an extra-time thriller. It looks like the commenters on the current thread are not trying to sell that nonsense any more and are willing to consider the difference in quality between the levels a moot point.

These recent comments, though, are still pushing the false dichotomy that you are either a varsity side with an "air-conditioned office" and "massive support" from university administration or you have no choice but to make up some gimmcky DIAA conference. It is my understanding that the majority of DIA programs have no more university resources than most and are simply choosing to make the sacrifices to compete and raise the funds to do so. Excuses continue to be the hallmark of mediocrity in college rugby when a lot of teams are doing more with less. Not everyone has to step up, but if you don't want to, why criticize the teams that are killing themselves to compete at the top level?

Rugby in the U.S. would be a lot better off if more people in the second tier would have the honest and positive attitude that "Not a hater" expressed in his May 3 post above; it's okay to admit that you're having more of a good time than the people grinding it out in DIA every day with no more resources than you have--and often less. Have fun, do your best, and respect those who are daring to cross the white line at another notch above instead of undermining them at every turn. I think anyone who pulls on a jersey at the DIA level deserves some respect, and it seems like anyone else who knows what it's like would feel that way too.

I understand that there are a lot of visions for the future success of college rugby in the U.S., but I have doubts about the long-term prospects of any organization whose members don't respect and support the organization's best examples.

[Playoff Observer]

@It's Okay
Extremely well said. Most of the top programs in D1A simply have the will/commitment from a few individuals that continue to drive the program forward. And, those few spend a lot of time working the school administration, alumni and assorted volunteers to get the "little things" done well. Every year the bar gets a little higher. Every year the standard for what constitutes an acceptable pitch, adequate officiating, media coverage and level of coaching is nudged a bit higher.

If you're one of those involved in making D1A better, good on ya'.

I saw the prognostications of Bruce, Alex and what's his name. For my money, the national championship game will be played next weekend in Marietta, GA in front of maybe 500 fans, about evenly divided between BYU and Life. Wish I could afford to travel to see that one. Bruce has Life winning that one, while the other two have BYU.

My money is on BYU, but Life is a most worthy competitor. We'll see.

[Empire Conference Fan]

Army & Rutgers just joined the Empire Conference.....so much for the East being stable

[College#3]

Love it - looks like the Mickey Mouse Conference of Life, ASU, BYU, Davenport and Lindenwood is a real possibility!

[bruce mclane]

not sure, but doubt its army 1st side.

[College#3]

If the Empire Conference has let a B side in, then they are idiots!

[Get your shinebox]

From the Virginia Rugby Union Facebook Site...Disclaimer is that nothing is quite set in stone, this is a "moving target"

PLEASE READ - Geographic Union Update - Some of you may or may not be aware that USA Rugby is implementing some changes to all levels of competition in the United States. The reason for this change is to accommodate the anticipated growing numbers of participants from youth, high school and collegiate rugby. Another reason is that, internationally, the USA Club system does not provide the clubs with enough matches. The new system will also eliminate a level of administration. So they've come up with a new competition system that is currently being discussed in many circles around the country and implemented in four areas of the country. The country will be divided into an American League and a National League with the Mighty Mississippi as the general divider. Our region will includ Virginia, North Carolina, Maryland, Delaware, West Virginia and Washington D.C.

Super league will go away and combine with Division 1. Bottom Tier D1 teams will move to D2 and top tier D2 teams will move up to D1. And so on down the line. The Women's Premier League, as far as i can tell, will remain however, the D2 league will have to play more matches. The way that the competition committee will increase games is to begin a home and home schedule across the board at all levels. For D1, we will play our region home/home and then cross over for six matches (home/home) vs. another region. The other division (women's, men's D2 and D3) will play home/home within our region. Example 1: James River Women - D2 competition will now play Severn River Women twice - once in Richmond and once in Annapolis. James River men will now play Blacksburgh twice - once in Richmond and once in Blacksburg. These matches will be played over the fall and the spring. There are a minimum number of games that must be playes. The winner of the GU will enter a tournament against the other National League GU's to determine the entry to the national championship. I do not know if the women's championship will be held in November.

In addition to these changes, USA Rugby will begin a Division 4 men's league and a Division 3 Women's league. This will be a competition for the social teams in the Union.

Things still out there - 7s, promotion/relegation, how to determine your division, scheduling, and many more.

I'm happy to talk to anyone about this and share the information i have.
Very Respectfully,
Matt Robinette
President
VRU

[college fan]

suckers when are you going to quit letting these self serving rugby administrations tell you what you need to do and who you need to play?

good for west point to decide their own plan away from the sham of playing NAIA trade schools.

[cpd changes]

Between 6 and 10 teams are planning to leave the CPD as best anyone can tell.

I think BYU is will stay with Ark St, Life, St Mary's, Ktown. Davenport will be promoted. They will fill in with other teams with no where to go.

It looks like it is getting down to the size some people wanted of about 12 or so teams.

[no fan of this college rugby]

Does Ark St beat Army tomorrow (Sun) or has it already happened.

What a final four ;-(.

[WCC]

BYU and St Mary's are in the WCC and a conference could be created, but there is a drop off from these top two from the others. Santa Clara, Loyola Marymount and USD are in D1-AA with a good rugby tradition on campus and dedicated coaches and players, but the rest of the conference are in D2 or don't a team.

NOTE: BYU football is independent.

[Big Shaker Rugby]

PAC-12 Conference with an East/West or North/South setup...

North
Washington
Washington St
Oregon
Oregon St
Cal
Stanford

South
Arizona
Arizona St
USC
UCLA
Utah
Colorado

Play all 5 in your sub-conference, plus 3 in the other... that's 8 games. Then play 1 game championship...

[Conference Watcher]

Doubt the Pac-12 will include some of those teams. Several of those teams are struggling with what they are currently doing in low requirement LAU rugby, much less ready a real sport conference. However, I do think we will see a Pac-12 rugby conference of 6-8 teams.

[Heard first on Gainline]

Ark State over the Gaels in a tight match and Life over the favored BYU in a tighter match.

Life makes in three in a row over the Red Wolves at Rio Tinto.

Davenport runs the table in D1aa, never breaking a sweat.

The NAIA runs rough shot over the NCAA and crowns Life and Davenport the kings on US rugby.

[Ragby]

SMC is going to abuse Ark St. but you are right, Life will beat BYU if it is above 85 degrees. And then SMC over Life.

[WCC]

@Shaker

That is wishful thinking, but USC hasn't won a single D1-AA game in two years. Unless you count the forfeit against UC Irvine because the UCI coach was playing kids that didn't even attend UCI. They are probably heading back to D2 where they never had success in So Cal either and being replaced by Cal State Long Beach.

[WCC]

Cal could win that Pac-12 conference with their B-side.

[Sergeant Hulka]

College #3: You may not like the names of those colleges, but that would be some damn good rugby to watch. Rugby is not football, we don't have to emulate all the known school conferences. Look at other sports such as lacrosse, basketball and hockey. Johns Hopkins, Butler, Ferris State. 9 out of 10 people posting here couldn't name where the these schools are located (I had to look up Ferris State). Good rugby is good rugby, period.

[Playoff Observer]

Good rugby to watch means that you and 10,000 other people would show up in the stadium and pay $10 per head or more to see the game.

You are not going to get 1/4 that many to come watch Life vs ASU or SMC. BYU or Utah vs Cal, yes. Life vs ASU or SMC, no. That's just how it is. History and the school's reputation have a bunch to do with drawing a crowd. And, unless there's a big pay-per-view gate on the Web, the live gate is all there is to measure tangible results from.

I hope that they can get 10,000 out to watch BYU beat SMC or ASU this year at Rio Tinto, but I'm not going to bet my farm on it. It would have been nice to have Cal this year, but they decided to forgo the privilege of getting whomped by the Cougars.

[Big Shaker Rugby]

@WCC...

USC has to stay in Div I-AA to be playoff eligible, so I don't see them dropping to Div II. Plus, if they did and the Pac-12 doesn't emerge, Pac Mtn West would lose their AQ with just 6 teams.

As for the rest of the teams, most are in the CPD now (6 if you include Cal). The rest are in Div I-AA. Every college conference in every sport has good teams and bad. USC may be a bad team, but having a full conference would be a good way to generate fan interest.

With this setup, you also achieve what ASU and Arizona were hoping for, to play in the SoCal region. Basically they would play 1 game in LA, at either Utah or Colorado, and then have a trip or 2 to Washington/Oregon/NorCal, or more likely 1 of those trips, and then meet the other in LA.

As an East Coaster, would love to see this conference happen in full.

[SoCalRugger]

I think Long Beach State wants to move up to D1-AA and USD wants to move down. This would give the Pac Mnt West 7 teams, but I hear SDSU wants to move up to D1-A. That's if they still have a the same coach for more than a year.

[SoCalRugger]

USC not USD wants to move down.

[Dally M]

"Mickey Mouse" college team haters: You're telling me that some of the best athletes in rugby either don't have the money or don't have the test scores to attend the best universities in the country by their own means? Shocking.

I was going to say that it's a little bit snobby to say there is no place in the future of top college rugby for great players and teams who are at schools with weaker academic reputations, but then again I may just lack a sense of history. After all, the idea of trying to shut out and discredit better athletes based on their income, background, and class is kind of a rugby (union) tradition.

[Sergeant Hulka]

Dally: very true.
Playoff Observer: Do you actually believe that ticket sales at last year's championship was based solely on the two teams playing? Ever think that the HS & U-19 Championship were going on at the same time. Add parents of those players and the general interest of a national championship in a place that doesn't see much rugby at that level and you get the resulting ticket count.

[Anon]

@Playoff Observer: 10,000 fans has more to do with brand loyalty and location than rugby quality. If you put the BYU and Cal players on teams called Provo and Berkeley and had them play in New York, nobody would give two shits.

[DP]

The CPD won't be around for more than another 2-3 years. Unless you are a team with the support of a Cal, BYU, Ark State, ect it doesn't make financial sense to compete. You have teams driving 1500 miles a weekend to play other teams in their conference. The average college student doesn't have the time or the money to do that and maintain decent grades.

[Playoff Observer]

There will be SOME competition for teams of the caliber of Cal, BYU, Utah, St. Mary's, Penn State, Army, Navy and Ark State. It may not be the CPD and it may not be run by USAR, but somebody's going to get the top teams together at the end of the season for a playoff, though, based on the results for the last 6 years, you could just have Cal play BYU and that could decide it.

There's too much interest out there for it to not happen. Somebody's going to want to have a playoff to find out who's best. Otherwise, we'd be back to the opinion polls deciding the national champion like we had before 1980, and nobody wants that.