BYU 38 Utah 22 (Ht: BYU 16-15)

(Provo, UT) With the deft kicking of scrumhalf Shaun Davies and a second-half rally, #1 BYU defeated #5 Utah 38-22 to capture their seventh consecutive Wasatch Cup at South Field. 

Davies slotted an penalty kick just minutes in, while Utah flyhalf Danny Christensen missed two early penalties. The Cougars bolstered their lead to 13-0 with another penalty from Davies and a try from outside center Paul Lasike. But the visitors soon found a rhythm - utility back Tonata Lauti, playing at wing, set up no. 8 Les Saloai for a score, and and counterpart Winston Harris had a breakaway run for 40 meters and a visit to the try line. All-American prop Nick Mostyn burst through for Utah's third unconverted try, but a third Davies penalty, in injury time, put the Cougars ahead 16-15 at halftime. 

The second stanza began with a BYU try, as wing Malosi Te'o intercepted a pass from Harris, his Utah opposite, racing 80 meters to touch down. Lauti was yellow-carded and Davies went four for four on the ensuing penalty kick. The shorthanded Utes pressed into BYU's 22, forcing multiple penalties - after the Cougars collapsed a scrum five meters out from the posts, referee Paul Bretz awarded a penalty try to Saloai. An easy conversion from Christensen made it 24-22, Utah trailing.

BYU made a critical kick for touch, using a penalty to set up a lineout deep in Utah's half. The Cougars turned over the ball on a crooked throw - Utah elected to scrum, but BYU won the engagement, allowing All-American no. 8 Ryan Roundy to muscle in for a short-range try. Freshman fullback Tua Laei sealed the game in the 64th minute on an off-load from wing Will Taylor, sprinting 30 meters to the try line. Davies converted, making the final score 38-22.

Of note was the presence (and absence) of several football crossovers. Wing Malosi Te'o, a senior, was a former running back for BYU, while sophomore Paul Lasike, moving in the other direction, is currently learning to play that same position. Utah was without former US Eagle Thretton Palamo, who spearheaded the Utes to victory in the 2010 CRC 7s. The center, of Samoan heritage, is now playing as a defensive end for Utah's football program.

With Saturday's win, unbeaten BYU (6-0 West) is assured a place in the DI-A postseason - a victory against Colorado on April 21st would mean a second Western Conference championship, as well as a quarterfinal match at home May 5th. Utah (3-0 West) travels north this weekend for back-to-back matches against #12 CU and #7 Air Force - all three teams remain in playoff contention. The Utes must return from Colorado with two wins to secure a playoff berth: should Utah lose to Air Force (2-2 West), the Zoomies become the frontrunners for the remaining Western playoff seed. 

BYU Cougars 

Tries: Paul Lasike, Malosi Te'o, Ryan Roundy, Tua Laei
Conversions: Shaun Davies (3/4)
Penalties: Shaun Davies (4/4)

Tua Leai; Will Taylor, Paul Lasike, Seki Kofe, Malosi Te'o; Dylan Lubbe, Shaun Davies; Mikey Su'a, Chad Harker, Ray Forrester, TJ Allred (Braden Bair), Mark Bonham (Hynie Leaatoa), Kyle Sumsion, Kumi Tua'one, Ryan Roundy ©.

Utah Utes 

Tries: Les Saloai, Winston Harris, Nick Mostyn
Penalty try: Les Saloai
Conversion: Danny Christensen (1/4)

Lopeti Lauti; Tonata Lauti, Trevor Trowbridge, Timote Houma, Winston Harris, Danny Christensen, Don Pati; Nick Mostyn ©, Michael Shepherd, Ty Peterson, Shawn Quigley, Spencer Vickery, Mike Juszczak, Danny James, Les Soloai.
Reserves: Kaleb Hogan, Bridger Walzer, Spencer Vickery, Madison Wilding, Samson Kaloni, Austin Taylor.

Referee: Paul Bretz (USA Rugby)
Attendance: 3,833 (official; standing room only after halftime)

 

Comments

[Word]

Rugby Mag...Hypocrisy exposed!

McLeod wanted to play community college players on his team, did he? And because he did this, he gets the Goof on Rugby lynching him, with the help of Kevin Battle.

Lets take a step back. USAR had one set of college eligibility rules. The rules set out the following main tenets: 1) be a full time student, 2) be within 5 years from when you began college, 3) play for the school you attend.

There was also an opportunity to appeal for reasons of hardship, military and religion. This is how BYU players of LDS faith get their two mission years back. Also a few knee injuries and some military service cases.

Then came along our new wonder Board who knew nothing about college sport. One member of the new wonder Board was Congress rep to the Board John Mullet. Mullet was and is the rugby coach at Grand Valley State. Mullet thought it a bad idea his team couldn't use the local community college players and for that matter thought his four year college should be able to use the students from several other local four year colleges which didn't have a rugby team.

Well Mullet is on the wonder Board so he just changes the rules. Now it is perfectly acceptable to be granted an appeal to play for a college you don't attend. Want proof? Go right now to the Grand Valley State rugby web site, look under prospects and you will see Congress and former USAR Board member Mullet proudly explaining the GVS rugby team is open to all the surrounding community college and four year schools, which are listed by name. Nice!

Now Rugby Mag has already hung McLeod dead, but don't let this small fact get in the way.

Now the USAR employee responsible for college eligibility at the time is Dan Payne. In order to coach full time, Payne works for USAR and gets staff work like deciding which eligibility appeals get approved. Payne for whatever reason, you decide, buys into Mullet's view that there are no rules. Attend ABC, play for XYZ. Go to community college for 3 years where there is no team, come to Life/Davenport and start with a fresh clock. True fricken story and it is going on right now today while McLeod is swinging dead from a tree on the Rugby Mag plantation.

Hey go to the Davenport rugby website. Take a look at their 6th years. They have six, 6th year players. It is said there are another dozen players on their roster which will play 6 or 7 years. Sorry guy's, you will need to do this investigative work on your own, because Alex Goff isn't going to do it for you. He is too busy lynching McLeod for what employee's and officials of USAR have been doing for years.

How old will the current Life team get before their eligibility runs out? Who knows, but there are lots of players who restarted their clock under the Mullet/Payne plan.

As an aside, while this was going on in college rugby, USAR was doing the same in high schools. Remember when if your single school HS didn't have a team, you could go play for another HS that did?

So back to the NAIA schools Davenport and Life, pumping their way through the competition with a different set of rules than all other teams but BYU. Davenport who's basketball competition is comprised of the four team conference Madonna, Conocordia and Indiana Institute of Tech...has now beaten Purdue, Indiana and Michigan State to win the midwest number one seed.

Does Alex Goff and Rugby Magazine know about all these 6-7th year players which have been stockpiled under the scheme? Doubt it, too busy unfairly lynching a coach because UCSB coach Kevin Battle wanted him lynched.

Does the eligibility committee know what is going on? Yes they do and it has much to do with these new eligibility rules roaring down the tracks. Finally!

It will take some time to work the 6-7 years through the system because they have been grandfathered, but in time the Mullet/Payne eligibility stain will be gone.

Of course, thanks to RM this does McLeod no good.

[EG]

^^There is a lot that is incorrect about the above comment.

That is all.

[Word]

It is a very accurate rendition of the recent eligibility problems facing USA college rugby...when these problems started, who started them and who furthered these problem.

What about Mullet and GVS isn't correct? Did you forget Dan Payne rewriting the eligibility rules to suit a couple NAIA teams?

Did Alex Goff fairly write about this mess while hanging the UC Irvine coach for playing community college players and we just miss it?

No, its all there to see. Underhand dealings, unfairness and hypocrisy.

Bring it on EG...lets have a good old debate about this eligibility mess which the current USAR eligibility committee is trying to clean up.

[Davy Crockett]

It is true that 13.5.2a was added to the USA Rugby Eligibility Regulations while Payne (staff) and Mullett (chair) worked with Collegiate Eligibility. However, any player in the US is free to apply for a waiver under these specific set of conditions and to paint this as a sinister plot designed to benefit one or two teams is off the mark.

Further, while I can't speak to who GVSU puts on the field in friendly matches, if a player that didn't attend GVSU entered a qualifying match, someone should protest. I assume there are eligiblity documents shared at gametime so it would be fairly easy to know where a kid goes to school.

[college]

Nice job Word minus all the lynching mentions.

[EG]

"Go to community college for 3 years where there is no team, come to Life/Davenport and start with a fresh clock."
^Wildly incorrect. Under the current rules, one does not "start with a fresh clock." What *may* happen is that a player can have their clock extended if they were unable to play rugby for up to two years. i.e. If a player started school in Fall 2005 and dicked around (academically) for six years at schools without rugby programs, then transferred to Life, they'd only be eligible for one year if the eligibility committee granted it to them. If the regulations carried over into next year (though it looks like they won't), that player would not be eligible since the five year window can only be extended two successive years.

"It is said there are another dozen players on their roster which will play 6 or 7 years."
^This assume that regulations will stay current from year to year, which is foolish. That, and waivers are never guaranteed.

"As an aside, while this was going on in college rugby, USAR was doing the same in high schools. Remember when if your single school HS didn't have a team, you could go play for another HS that did?"
^You can still do this. The difference used to be between 'High School' and 'U19.' Now, 'U19' is 'High School Club.'

"Davenport who's basketball competition is comprised of the four team conference Madonna, Conocordia and Indiana Institute of Tech...has now beaten Purdue, Indiana and Michigan State to win the midwest number one seed."
^This has more to do with a varsity environment than the age of the players. I attended a school in the south where having several former (older) military members didn't help my team crush the teams that didn't have them. If you really think one or two extra years of age helps win championships, as opposed to a varsity or varsity- like training environment, you're mental. Because, you know, college teams *never* beat senior men's teams who are loaded with older players.

"Does Alex Goff and Rugby Magazine know about all these 6-7th year players which have been stockpiled under the scheme? Doubt it, too busy unfairly lynching a coach because UCSB coach Kevin Battle wanted him lynched."
^Said coach tried to hide what he did in his role as conference commissioner. That's why he's getting 'lynched' - not because he's the first coach to make this mistake.

"It will take some time to work the 6-7 years through the system because they have been grandfathered, but in time the Mullet/Payne eligibility stain will be gone."
^This is speculation on your part. You have no idea how a grandfather clause will/might look until the regulations come out.

Also, the numerous implications that Life is stockpiling older players is sad/hilarious. The vast majority of their roster is quite young.

[Word]

@ College

Point taken, I apologize, no more references to lynching. However, it is hard to reconcile the RM treatment given to McLeod...and not the real culprits without getting provocative.

@ Davy

It was no chance occurrence the eligibility rules were lessened under Mullet. As mentioned he was also supportive of the single school HS rugby changes which several states ignored for the betterment of HS rugby.

Was Payne's actions "sinister"? Your term, not mine. I say he knew exactly what he was doing and must believe he is right. He gave many dozens of players years of eligibility. Players who previously had burned two/three years, got them back. This creates by rule, not by chance of military or religion, 26 year old rugby college players.

Are these kids showing up on the Dartmouth team? No, they have and will populate the Davenport and Life rosters in a substantial way.

Was this sinister isn't the way to evaluate the outcome. I suggest do it this way. Davenport will have at least six 6th year players in the playoffs. That is 25 or older year olds. More in future years. If this was the outcome US rugby is looking for, then you got it.

When Life plays BYU for the championship in future years and the players in the minority are college aged players 19-22, then US rugby will have gotten what it planned during the Mullet/Payne period of authority.

Sinister? You decide. Shortsighted, narrow minded and unfair? Yep!

[Sergeant Hulka]

So, yeah. How about that BYU/Utah match?

[GouchoGal]

Let's get some facts straight.

1) McLeod played players that do not attend UC Irvine in league games while waiting to see if they would get a waiver from USA Rugby. Rule violation. End of story.

2) When the waivers to play non-students from UC Irvine were denied by USA Rugby the news was sent to the interim conference chairman Jim Wilson and the acting chairman Vince McLeod. This is where McLeod's true colors come out. He tried to bury the whole thing and not until Jim brought it up again near the end of the season because McLeod didn't inform the TU (who was governing the conference during this first year of existence) and it had ramifications on the playoff picture.

3) When McLeod was approached by Rugby Mag he put out a smoke screen of lies and half truths that hurt his position and reputation.

That is the full story.

[Word]

@EG

So, the player doesn't get a fresh clock, they are just extended...I see. The result is the same my friend, older player 25+ with a physical advantage over a college aged player. If this is what you want then say so.

When discussing HS's you must have missed my reference to single schools. US rugby rugby had always had community club teams. Then a sensible decision was reached which split the HS championship between U19 open clubs and single school teams. What Mullet and his crew did was say it was OK for a HS student to play on a single school team he didn't attend. Bright, really bright.

Let's see how the eligibility grandfathering works out. We only know what is offered in RM (this problem for another time) and RM reported there would be grandfathering of a fail approach.

[LOL]

Goucho's heavily involved in throwing competitor out of the league for doing what others do. Can't wait until Kevin Battle's UCSB team is put to the sword by Davenport. What a fine laugh this will be.

[GouchoGal]

I notice the chatter stops when the facts are on the table.

[Word]

Oh you mean the chatter stops because of your weak defense of RM's treatment towards McLeod. Those are your "facts". Please.

You must be saying McLeod didn't handle things well on his end and therefore he is open game. That he is not enough of an insider to know how to abuse the rules like others.

McLeod is history as you point out. RM made sure of that. How else was this going to end up.

Personally, I am only interested in discussing McLeod and the treatment of him by RM and Kevin Battle in context with what others have done and gotten away with.

I am still keen for this part of the conversation. I will let you Goucho's continue to eliminate your competition on the message boards.

[Not seeing it]

Why would UCSB have cared if they had to play USCB or Claremont in the first round of playoffs. Either team at 4th place would have just been making up the numbers. What is Battle's angle here?

[I don't see it either]

Battle was in Fiji with his team and stranded by a cyclone while all this was going on. Pretty sure he didn't have anything to do with it.

[Anteater]

UCI's leadership decided that McLeod was done well before RM started their crusade.

[Word]

Didn't Battle's team lose to Claremont last year? Why play the game if you can eliminate them before kick off.

In any case, it was one of those petty I'm going to take McLeod down things. Battle smelling is own aroma a little too much. Don't mess with the chairmen stuff.

I see Kevin Battle as only a sad footnote in a sadder little drama. Nothing more. Storyline...Naive UC Irvine rugby coach taken down by the editor of Rugby Mag...while USAR insiders build powerhouses with players previously ineligible. Coming to a field near you.

[EG]

Word:

Let's do some math before I get to some other points.

If I'm 18 on my first day of college, I'm...
18 in my 1st year
19 in my 2nd year
20 in my 3rd year
21 in my 4th year
22 in my 5th year
23 in my 6th year
24 in my 7th year

i.e., since most kids at least go to community college for (at least) the first semester after they graduate high school, there are very few "25+" players . You pretty much have to be a 7th-year player and have been either 18 or 19 when you entered college. Mostly.

Moreover, other than at BYU, where everyone is required to go on a two-year mission, there really aren’t that many 7th-year players – and even there most of them graduate on a 4-year track and are only 6th-year players.

Additionally, since there aren’t a ton of people willing to blow their parents’ money or tack on additional student debt for an extra year of collegiate rugby eligibility, the whole thing is largely overplayed. Sure, maybe some guys who didn’t really make it in college and have been floating around in the senior men’s game… maybe Davenport, Life, etc. pick up those guys. But I’d hardly get upset about that since it means ruggers are getting an education. If there weren’t kids being picked up for other college sports, there’d probably be a lot of folks who’d miss out on a degree.

This all also forgets that any school can pick up 6th- & 7th-year players if they so chose. There are college students all over the place who were in the military, went on missions, attended schools without rugby teams, etc. What people are really upset about is that the more organized programs can find these players a smidge better than others, perhaps.

----

“What Mullet and his crew did was say it was OK for a HS student to play on a single school team he didn't attend. Bright, really bright.”
^ I must have missed this, and I can’t definitely agree with it or dispute it, so I suppose I’ll have to let this comment sit.

----

As to your last point (the grandfather clause), we’ll just have to wait and see. I highly doubt RM reported everything correctly, and find it suspect that they would even have a copy of the regulations. They probably just heard some secondhand stuff from someone quasi-involved.

[Still not seeing it.]

"Didn't Battle's team lose to Claremont last year? Why play the game if you can eliminate them before kick off."

This is all kinds of wrong. Last year, Claremont was playing in the CPL, so they didn't play each other (at least in a meaningful game). This year, UCSB beat Claremont 44-3 and UCI by a similar score.

I really don't think that Battle engineered this whole thing so that he could face Claremont instead of UCSB in the playoffs...both teams would have been similar underdogs.

Again, I just don't get what Battle has to gain here to make him a culprit in all this mess.

[EG]

Regardless of what other teams may or may not (allegedly) do, what brought down the coach in question is that he tried to hide the result in his role as conference commissioner. Period. The cover-up is always worse than the crime. If others who've (supposedly) done this had also been conference commissioners at the time, were caught, and didn't report being caught in a timely manner, they'd be roasted just as hard.

[Word]

Battle was in Fiji well after four RM stories on the matter.

We all might be giving Kevin Battle too much airtime. But look, he picked a fight with McLeod. McLeod got caught-out playing fast and loose with the rules...kind of like Mullet, Payne and others. McLeod was no match for a rugby insider, he was a dead man walking. Battle is a weak-man's bully and he crushed McLeod then gave several stories to Alex Goff who published them without research or context.

[EG]

I don't seem to recall Mullet et al being conference commissioners who were caught blatantly violating the rules with their team and then covering up the violation. Whether they openly gamed things to their advantage would be an alternate discussion entirely.

Also, how do we know that Battle, Goff, etc. didn't contact the folks who handled the case for the information they wrote about? Saying stories were published without research or context, particularly if e-mail evidence might exist, seems rather inflammatory.

[Word]

This has been fun. I will stop by again sometime.

The USAR eligibility rules have been stuffed since Mullet and Payne began restructuring college rugby to suit NAIA schools. This long before a naive coach at UC Irvine shat the bed.

Rugby Magazine's role in the take down of this coach was a disgrace.

The new eligibility rules will be great for college rugby. A window of five years from you high school graduation. Through careful appeal a chance for one other year. Nothing else offered nothing else needed. Everyone gets out of HS at the same age, now college rugby will be played by students of the same age.

Word!

[SOCAL7S]

What is wrong with the rugby media taking down a cheat? RM didn't even bring up the fact that McLeod left D3 Whittier College a year ago under allegations of stolen funds and equipment after he mixed the team bank account with his personal account.

[politics]

I did see on RugbyMag where Battle was politicising the playoff spots by saying even if UCSB doesn't beat SDSU they should still get an at-large berth.

This doesn't give much hope to the other teams in the US which don't have an automatic qualifying spot. There must be a dozen or more leagues and competitions who don't have an AQ. Sounds like Battle wants two bites. UCSB is in if they win and in if they don't, to hell with the rest of the country.

To complete the picture, the two leagues in the Pacific region want two of the three at large spots. This would be one spot for Santa Clara, winner of the 4 northern teams and one spot for the loser of the UCSB and SDSU match.

This leaves one at large spot for the rest of the country. I think Kev is betting on those all so accurate (NOT) RugbyMag rankings to make his case ;-)

It is bery bery good to be chairman.

[Still not seeing it.]

Gee, a coach lobbying for a spot in the playoffs! What a dirty dirty guy.

[More interesting than lower division bickering]

@ Sgt Hulka (& anyone else)...

Here's a link to watch the BYU-Utah game.
http://byurugby.com/2012/04/08/video-wasatch-cup-2012-byu-vs-utah/

[GouchoGal]

@word and @politics (really McLeod)

Get back to work and off gainline.us before you F'ed up your job like you F'ed up your hobby of coaching college rugby.

[7's vs 15's]

@word,
I wish that to be true...who can we count on to fact check/confirm graduation documents for kids from outside the US from such countries as tonga/samoa (BYU)or south africa (life) and the "foreign admissions friendly" staff at asu?

[+1]

Gee, more like the Chairman of the USAR College Competitions Committee using his position to lobby for his own team. I agree with you "dirty".

[EG]

@politics:

"There must be a dozen or more leagues and competitions who don't have an AQ."
^Um... there is exactly *one* D1-AA conference/league that doesn't have an AQ, and that's the Northern California conference.

It seems to be the worst-kept secret in college rugby that the NorCal champ will probably get one of the at-large bids. After that, it seems obvious that there will be one at-large from the eastern half of the country and one at-large from the western half of the country. Given the conferences/leagues in the western half of the country, it doesn't seem like a stretch to award a spot to the loser of the UCSB-SDSU match - *if* that's what happens. Who in the western half of the country do you think will be more deserving?

In the eastern half of the country, I'd bet my bottom dollar on it being either Bowling Green or the SEC runner-up. Of course, there's always an outside chance that one of those two takes the spot the UCSB-SDSU loser wants.

[Observer]

I do not think Kevin Battle had anything to do with putting RM on the McLeod scandal. Pat Clifton @ RM called around getting the score on the final week and asked about the playoff match-ups and learned that UC Irvine was out based on a SCRFU decision made a few days prior to the Saturday matches. So he called McLeod and based on what was written he had a meltdown because he has no clue on how to deal with the media and how to deal with the fact he got caught. Why he didn't take the hit like a man and admit fault and apologize for having poor judgement on how waivers work for JC students is just plan ignorant on his part. Instead he threw out accusations and then played the victim.

[7's vs 15's]

wished they edited out the first 3 minutes so we didn't have to view the ridicules dance routine by byu....how is this in line with mormon culture?...players in and out of uniform...from stripes ".....guys, help the white guys".

[greg williams]

7/15..."dace routine"...?...wow, again, you speak before educating yourself: http://byurugby.com/about/byu-haka/
You really don't like BYU or Mormons do you?

[Feng]

"You really don't like BYU or Mormons do you?"

Who does?

[Magic BVDs]

@greg williams

Giving the Haka a new name and saying it is about a fable in the Book of Mormon is like a team from a Jewish school doing the Haka and saying it pays respect to the Maccabee army that took control of Judea 2000 years ago.

Your argument is a joke. The reason BYU does the Haka is because the team is stacked with Pacific Islanders that feel it asserts their presence at BYU, and a bunch of white dudes who think it is cool and scary. End of story.

[7's vs 15's]

@gw,
let's just say i strongly disagree with how both entities operate and leave it at that.
still don't understand why the Haka, a sacred Maori dance, is being performed at a mormon university on US soil, by players from a variety of countries, not all of whom are mormon. The link to the sons of helaman is a mighty stretch.

[greg williams]

Feng...wow.

Magic BVDs...Firstly, your handle tells us a lot about position to begin with. So let me not waste much of my time other than to say that it's not your place to interpret why BYU does the haka as you say. End of story.

7/15...my hard-headed friend...disagree all you want. I can respect that. But what you don't understand doesn't give you place to disrespect and berate. If you choose not to understand, then again, I can respect that. Regardless, respect another's choice to do as they wish and leave it at that.

[SOCAL7S]

The Maccabeeonly story is true. The Sons of Helaman story is fiction along with most or all of the Book of Mormon.

[GouchoGal]

http://www.facebook.com/notes/vince-mcleod/response-to-rugbymag-article-about-uc-irvine/10150702182044828

Does this reply from McLeod make sense to anyone?

[Haystacks Calhoun]

Congrats to BYU. Great game by Utah. Thanks for playing the game at such a high level. The great state of Utah leads the way.

[Respect Privacy]

No, but you're going too far.

[Kevin Battle]

Let me first state that when I post, I use my name. We had nothing to gain with with the UC Irvine debacle and I feel bad for the program as they have good kids and are deserving to play. I even called Vince and the club president personally to let them know this was coming down. Sad chain of events really. No dirt slinging from this direction. Too much work to do preparing for on-field competition.

[college]

all that separates Utah from BYU appears to be goal-kicking right now. I'm hoping this is the championship match. Should be a great one.

[2012]

When does the Cal-BYU challenge match take place? Late May, early June?

I would pay decent money to watch that game.

[What makes you so special?]

Kevin, don't lower your standards by feeding the trolls that having nothing better to do than make garbage comments on this stupid website.

[MoneyLine]

SDSU by 7 UCSB are over rated and lack coaching.

[FrontRow]

Kurt, in the previous article about semi-pro rugby in NZ you got the exchange rate backwards. One NZ dollar is worth only 81 US cents, so that makes the numbers in your illustration even more compelling.

[7's vs 15's]

@gw,
the 1st amendment allows me the "right" to comment on byu's pre match dance/theater/minstrel show along with stating my disbelief on the manner in which byu's lame attempt to legitimize it as well.

[Get a Grip Mormons]

@GW

I saw the Pine Valley Elementary School Ladybugs do the Haka before a red rover red rover contest. They call their version of the Haka the Ladybug Boogie and do it to honor the battle between Edward and Jacob from the book Twilight.

That makes as much sense as your BYU tradition with the Haka.

[haka]

I was half OK with the BYU Haka, until the video made the rounds last year showing them crossing their own 10m, then the halfway, then the ASU 10m, when they began yelling in the ears of the ASU players.

The ASU players didn't realize they were supposed to stand there and take it...accept the challenge. Their coach tells them to just turn their backs until it is over. Dumb advise from a...

This however doesn't allow BYU to turn their Haka into a pre-match verbal assault. Were their feeling hurt, did they feel disrespected because the kids from Tempe didn't go to Haka school?

All this talk about BYU's Haka being religion based is a crock. The only "story telling" that is going on is they are trying to intimate you.

It doesn't look that intimating except for the fact it goes on a few bars too long.

[Use the Fast Forward!]

EVERY haka tells a story. The underlying story of the "standard" Komate Koro haka is at least as "ridiculous" as any other. The haka is a cultural ritual enjoyed by those who perform it and, if you don't wanna watch it, don't pay your $10 admission. You've got a lot of nerve complaining about a free video that HAS A FAST FORWARD CONTROL, for heaven's sake.

Surely the BYU team paid a significant amount to get that (quite good) broadcast together so that their fans could enjoy it. Obviously, YOU ARE NOT THEIR TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC. Get off your uninformed critique of their cultural ritual and criticize the game or something you may actually know something about.

I say good on 'em for giving us a quality game and broadcast to view.

[Jesus]

This argument that if you do not agree with BYU doing the Haka, you're not informed is ridiculous. How can people who point out that one group is appropriating another group's culture be the uninformed? BYU has noting to do with the Haka other than they proselytize their religion they appropriated from another religion...OK...now I get it. The Mormons don't have an original thought in their head and just as they stole elements of Christianity and masonic rituals to come up with Mormonism they are now taking the Haka and making it their own.

I hope to see the day when college rugby championships are on TV with the same fanfare, sponsorship and prestige that is given to our major sports. However, when I hear the announcer say that BYU's little dance is a way to show respect to a warrior from the Book of Mormon I will turn the TV off.

[GW]

@ Get a Grip...nothing could be more further from the truth. But nice try.

@ Fast Forward...@ Get a Grip and every other vocal minority here should listen to you. Every team, every group, every club, every religion, every school, every organization has their own respective ways of providing meaning. Stanford has the "Wacky Walk", USC has "Traveler", English rugby fans sing "Swing Low" a Bible Belt religious song...etc. You all get my point. Different groups ascribe value and meaning to something that is important to them however different it might seem to others. I'm not asking for people to understand or agree. Just respect a different mode of operation. That's all.

@ Jesus...originality in any religion isn't original. Don't disagree. See my comment to @ Fast Forward above...you are more than welcome to turn off the TV. There will be plenty of others who won't.

[Moron Mormons]

Dance BYU Dance! You look like knobheads, but dance away.

[GW]

@haka don't disagree with BYU's act there. Shouldn't have done it.
@7/15 props to 1st amendment! Couldn't agree more!

[GW]

@7/15 forgot to add that with the 1st amendment comes BYU's ability to dance, shuffle, sing, get jiggy, or even sache. The underlying human element here is that when people don't see eye to eye, then both people opine as they will and leave it at that and leave the hate speech, name calling, belittling at the door.

Respect Difference. That's as constitutional as it gets.

[IMHO]

@GW

Get off your high horse. BYU doing the Haka, and some taking a dislike to its grotesque appropriation of another people's culture, isn't about enlightenment or understanding. It is about an opinion by some that it is inappropriate for many reasons. Most notably because it is trite and its defense by supporters is pretentious. In a nutshell it is an Epic Fail.

[GW]

@imho No high horse. Just interesting that you and the other vocal minority use words like "grotesque", "knobheads", "minstrel show", or other anti-Mormon epithets in order to explain your dislike.

Why can't you just say, we don't like it and move on?

Sensationalizing or demonizing another doesn't make your position more worthy. Ironically, you and others like you are so interested in battling against something that you're uncomfortable with that you fail to see your position's own pretention. And that my friend, is an even greater Epic Fail.

[IMHO]

You're truly a bizarre person GW. You're trying to paint me as hateful or insensitive to a religious group for using the word grotesque. Get a dictionary before you storm into a blog's comments area.

gro·tesque   [groh-tesk]
adjective

1. odd or unnatural in shape, appearance, or character; fantastically ugly or absurd; bizarre.

2. fantastic in the shaping and combination of forms, as in decorative work combining incongruous human and animal figures with scrolls, foliage, etc.

[7's vs 15's]

now "minstrel show" is considered a anti-mormon epithet? holy underwear batman!

[greg williams]

@IMHO: as your definition states "fantastically ugly" = sensationalism.

@7/15: "minstrel show" isn't anti-mormon...if you re-read my statement I separate sensationalist words from anti-mormon. As you just showed however, you and others like you are quick to resort to the old standbys of anti-religious epithets in order to make your points.

Again, disagree with people's difference: BYU, Notre Dame, Mormon Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Rugby, Lacrosse, Football or whatever. That's fine. But no need to bash.

[7's vs 15's]

@gw,
nice try, "minstrel show.....and other anti-mormon epithets...." statement of yours ties directly to your religious paranoia... call it what you want, my comment is directed at byu's rugby team to perform their stolen pre match dance and junior varsity attempt to claim it has ties to mormon history. nuff said.

[greg williams]

@7/15 Re-read...If you go back to English 101 "or" and "and" carry two different connective meanings in sentence structure.

When all is said and done, we're probably best to say we agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Healthy good banter.

[7's vs 15's]

my short yellow bus didn't deliver me to english 101, but i do know when one plays semantic games in an attempt to validate with paradoxical thinking.

[Sergeant Hulka]

Only national team sides should do a haka, and then only national team sides that have a tribal dance as part of their national culture. You don't see the Highlanders, Hurricanes, Chiefs, Crusaders or Blues doing the haka before a Super Rugby match. They save it for when they wear the national team jersey.

[ARP]

OK what if we all agreed BYU could do a Under-22 Haka?

There would be 6 guys in Haka formation.

Short way of saying what make the BYU Haka performance all the more BS, is it is performed by a bunch of mid to late 20's guys. How cool of them to offer a challenge to these college aged teams.

[7's vs 15's]

@arp,
don't get me started again on the age difference topic!!

[DJ]

The Haka is pathetic and has no place in sport. Especially not in American college sport.

[IMHO]

@GW

You are either a troll or lack basic understanding of the English language. Good bye.

[greg williams]

@7/15 Of course you do..you're pretty good at it yourself.

@arp...aarp maybe? 7/15 is chomping at the bit to go at BYU some more on the age topic. Because nothing says unfair than a team that is supported by church-sponsored university that has it's unique pre-game ritual, oh and is chalk full of 28 year olds who have 5 wives, 12 kids and fly on brooms in magic underwear.

If its not one thing is another. #tiredexcuses #haters

@7/15...the floor is yours. Go for it.

[Mormon - an M = ????]

@GW and/or @greg williams

Chill out! Based on the Book of Abraham in Mormon scripture by LDS founder Joseph Smith Jr. you will be going to the planet Kolob soon enough with your wife (wives?) and everything will be fine. Enjoy & Chill!

[greg williams]

@mormon...would you be startled to know that I might not be a mormon?...I might be a moron, however.
#moreantimormonepithets

[7's vs 15's]

not sure if gw is greg williams or what...i think the case has been made by me and others: byu haka=stupid; mormonism is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma....and with that good night folks.

[Et Al]

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

- Mark Twain

[Palmer]

I'm thinking Life Chiropractic is going to beat BYU.

Utah had the better of the BYU forwards. There is more to rugby than being big.

[DJ]

Life?
Oh, you mean the trade school masquerading as a university. The one getting kids that drop out of other schools and then giving then full rides?

Now don't get me wrong - they are a fantastic side and a great rugby academy, but please don't call them a university in the same sense as a school like Cal.

[Sergeant Hulka]

No, Life is more a university like Arkansas St. or Kutztown. Not many schools, public or private, are as prestigious as Cal. Or, maybe they're more like Georgia, Georgia Tech, Texas A&M, Kennesaw St. and the Citadel, since they are accredited by the same Commission on Colleges - Southern Association of Colleges and Schools...

[bruce mclane]

stop acting like certain schools are prestigious and others are a joke, at princeton econ was taught by our inflationist fed chair (i can go on and on with fools from so called top schools). there are clowns all over. life, ASU, Kutztown, etc are no different and in many ways better than these ridiculous bastions of statist indoctrination.

let's stick to rugby, life wins, ASU wins, Kutztown wins, Davenport wins, Lindenwood wins.

BC just beat ferris st in the hockey finals.

good teams are good teams, get used to the new names or beat them.

[read a book]

"Kutztown is way better than Cal in terms of education" is what I just heard you say.

Actually, even if your logic is accepted, you are still wrong. Unless they are some right wing school like oral roberts, they all teach the same thing. So Kutztown teaches the same thing as Cal, only worse. I guess if you want to call that better, because they teach what you reject worse, then I guess you are right.

[Provo Spectator]

Life may very well play in this year's final. So may ASU, though Life currently has the inside track. Utah, though a very good side, is a long shot, since, as a 2nd place conference finisher they would have to travel on 2 consecutive weekends and beat first the Pacific #1 (i.e., St. Mary's) and then, Army. If they can pull off beating St. Mary's, they just might have an inside track against Army.

Anyone know what USAR's broadcast plans are for the semis and final? ESPNU in standard def? I'm guessing one game will be played at West Point, NY, and the other in Marietta, GA. It will be interesting to see whether the Eastern bloc of team management in D1-A can fill stadia as efficiently as those in California and Utah.

Everyone I've talked to feels that a BYU/Utah final would blow the doors off attendance records for college rugby, and might even make a bunch of money for D1-A for a change. It's not overly likely to happen, but fun to think about.

[Palmer]

Like I said, I've got Life Chiropractic over BYU at Rio Tinto. Crowd will be solid, as well it should with all 47 championships being played at one location.

There is a school for everybody. Dartmouth, Stanford and the other privates. Cal, UVA and the other good public universities. Small parochial colleges, Military Academies, state schools and even chiropractic colleges. Something for every taste bud, ability and budget.

Life over BYU in the final 34-27.

I remember the last time Elmer started his defense of the trade schools, someone suggested a security guard college. I think Elmer runs a security guard company. Big tough bastards kicking the shit out of the Ivy Leaguers. Still think this is really funny.

[bruce mclane]

Can't we discuss the rugby in the schools. Academics is subjective at best. It is indoctrination not education, there is a difference.

Life, ASU, Kutztown play good rugby, as do cal, utah, SMC, byu, get over it.

[Haystacks Calhoun]

Life is not a university and should not be allowed to play rugby with college teams. Bogus.

BYU and any other non national rugby team doing the Haka ? Stop it, and BYU is my favorite college rugby team.

[Gorgeous George]

I'm not trying to be a smartass, but by what standards would you allow a tertiary educational institution compete in college rugby?

Life is regionally accredited by SASC, just like Emory, Georgia Tech, and Morehouse. Sallie Mae is just as happy to give young people money to go to Life and find themselves in debt slavery as they would be with any of the other schools. NAIA accepts them in intercollegiate sports, just as they do with UC Merced, Cal State San Marcos, Azusa Pacific, LSU Shreveport, and Evergreen State.

So what makes Life different that USA Rugby should deviate from SASC, Sallie Mae, and the NAIA in regarding them as a university?

[kovana]

Lol.. at the supposed 'reason' for the Haka by BYU.. lol.

Only Maoris should do the haka..

"Sons of Helaman" LOL.. Is this in reference to the supposed journey of Moroni the Jew to the Americas? And that all Polynesians are descendants from South America.. and are therefore jewish.. LOL.. Make i lauf.

[read a book]

indoctrination is such a scary, big word. Usually used by people incapable of making more in-depth arguments. Not happy schools are not teaching all about the magic of an unregulated free market? They do. It's covered in American history up until around the 1930s.

I saw Life play vs Notre Dame. They are scary good. But i am hoping for an all Utah championship for those same reasons. Utah wont have a problem with Army if they can get there. We'll see about St. Mary's this weekend vs Cal.

[Bruce McLane]

Read a book, you ought to

[Brain Freeze]

Yep. Worst comment thread in the history of Gainline and we're talking about some tough competition for that mantle.

All of the contributors should pat yourselves on the back. You've done the American rugby community proud.

If I was a non-rugby person and found my way here while doing a search trying to find out about the sport for my kid, I'd hightail it out of here and tell my kid to stick with baseball/softball, track or even try lacrosse if they want to play a spring sport.

As a rugby person I am continually amazed by what goes on here. There's nothing wrong with a good old heated discussion, but it never takes more than a few thoughtful comments before the argument devolves into the same discussions over and over again. To make matters even worse, it often turns personal.

I've posted here plenty of times over the years. This is the last.

[What is the internet for, anyway?]

"As a rugby person I am continually amazed by what goes on here. There's nothing wrong with a good old heated discussion, but it never takes more than a few thoughtful comments before the argument devolves into the same discussions over and over again. To make matters even worse, it often turns personal.

I've posted here plenty of times over the years. This is the last."

Reading this comment makes it seem like this is your are new to the internet.

[What is the internet for, anyway?]

"Reading this comment makes it seem like this is your are new to the internet."

Oops...got stuck halfway between "...this is your first time on..." and "...you are new to..."

[Sergeant Hulka]

Pardon my sarcasm, but my intention was to remind the poster trashing Life that they are an accredited institution, just like the other schools listed. Why some people can't accept that a school with recent accrediation is legitimate is beyond me. Life offers a bachelor's degree as well as a DC degree, it's plain and simple. And, they have a great rugby program. The world outside of rugby will be just fine with that. Just like when Bemidji State went to the Frozen Four. Nobody ever heard of it prior to them being successful in hockey.

[Peter Pan]

Just listened to Bruce rant and rave about the new eligibility regs coming down the pipeline.

Sorry Bruce - but you are so wrong.

These kids make life choices to go on religious missions, join the Army or take a gap year. Whatever the reason, the choice is there's to make and in my book that shouldn't allow them to beat up on legitimate college aged kids (18-22) when they are in their mid 20's and older.

Teams like Davenport who are importing 25 year Aussies who will then be allowed to play until he's 30, are ruining college rugby - plain and simple.

[lv_rugger]

Totally agree Peter Pan. Calling USARugby racist for implementing this change is way out of line. Over 25, go play for a club team and leave the "boys" to play college rugby.

[MattD]

BREAKING NEWS: NFL Network to air Grand Prix Rugby Sevens Championship for the new Professional Rugby Sevens League. #ProRugbySevens

http://rugbyamerica.net/2012/04/12/nfl-network-named-as-broadcast-partner-for-grand-prix-rugby/

[Never too late for college]

I suppose these guys must really offend your sensibilities too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Weinke
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Flynt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Anderson_%28running_back%29

Why should rugby be any different?

[Captain Hook]

There is a massive difference between an 18-20 year old kid in a Varsity football program and one that is playing club sport rugby for the first time. The football player is much better equipped to deal with a 25 year old than a young rugby player who has sometimes just started playing the game.

Its not just safety though, its wrong end of story, and only those wanting to recruit 25 year olds from D3 men's clubs can see this.

[Sergeant Hulka]

Don't fret, an age limit for university club sports won't happen. That's an ageism lawsuit waiting to happen. And what's with all these helicoptor parents worrying that their poor little Johnny might get hurt while playing rugby? 18 is an adult, unless you want another age classification. As soon as you're old enough to drink, you can't play college rugby? If your little boy is afraid of getting tackled in rugby, he should stay off the field.

[bruce mclane]

i'm just not into rules, or if there are rules, apply them fairly and evenly, which often doesn't happen.

whatever the schools want they should do. play in comps with like minded people.

[Sulk Hulka]

Hulka
Stick to D3 smash mouth keg ball.
You havn't a clue what your talking about.