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01 February 2012

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salt lake city, really?
can think of a half dozen cities that would provide equal or better venues and almost guarantee increased attendance from passionate rugby crowds. someone must have photos of somebody doing something...

Cal vs BYU drew 12k...so USAR moves all their college championships to SLC, and the Jr RWC and ???

7s v 15s... Name these cities, and appropriate venues if you think its so easy.

My guess is they would need: a 5k (max) seat stadium to keep cost down, and not look stupid on tv, a city with a rugby community, a cost effective city (ie: NOT New York City), an organized rugby community who can help with logistics, a city that isn't boiling hot in late June (there goes most of the southern US), and many other variables.

Good luck.

when the colleges went from the lau/tau to conferences, the all star tournament was done. now, will there be a conference event of some-sort, time will tell.

as for the jwrt, this is a good tournament and i doubt that any host has ever made money on the event, and since this is typically awarded 6-8 months prior, you cannot think too far out of the box to make it work.

have been critcal of usar for many things, this however is not one.

USAR needs to admit that they do not know how to market rugby events. Expecting grassroots clubs to do the legwork has failed before and will fail again to bring in big numbers. USA Sevens LLC is the only group that has a proven track record in marketing big rugby events in the US. Hopefully, USAR will partner with USA Sevens or another group with real marketing ability.

"If the JWRT event is a failure, I can blame it on the local organizers." CHECK!
- Melville's Mind

HDC,
San Francisco, San Jose, Los Angeles, San Diego, Santa Clara, Sacramento.
Each of these cites have enthusiastic and knowledgable rugby fan base with stadiums to accomodate day or night games.
Next.

Nope. Didn't answer the question. Find me the appropriate venue in each city.

Buck Shaw stadium is the only place on your list to even consider... very expensive and booked due to Quakes games. You'd need full access to the stadium for 3 weeks minimum.

HDC,
you seem knowledgeable enough to know each of the cities mentioned possess multiple college, public or private facility options adequate to serve as host city. didn't say it would be easy but each would be better to logistically serve the rugby community at large than the remoteness of SLC. i've done my homework, i'm going out to play now.

You clearly have not done your howmework.

If you think its so easy, try me. Find a stadium that would work. It would need to be grass. It would need to be big enough to put an IRB regulation rugby pitch on (most footballs stadiums arent). Less than a half hour to a major airport? Dormitory facilities for teams? There is so much more at play here than you realize. Also, SLC isn't remote, it's smack dab in the middle of the American West.

Ya, Salt Lake blew the Winter Olympics, if they were not able to host that small event then they surely couldn't handle the large event of the Junior World Trophy. Plus outside of the Vegas 7's name the last time a rugby game in the US had over 10,00 spectators, Utah's rugby community really sucks doesn't it.

Also: Brett Costain... I mean... "sevens"..

It's been said many, many, many times.... The reason USA 7s is good at marketing an event, is because they LOOSE millions of dollars on each one! They can afford to do it. Good for them. USA Rugby could hire some ace marketing guys too... if they could afford it. They can't.

How do they keep looosing money? Are they hoping to turn it around or do their investors just not care. If it's the latter, I need to get those people on the phone, because I've got a few ideas that need funding.

Spelling Champ: USA Sevens does not "LOOSE" millions of dollars. They did in the early years but now they have a solid marketing base from which to promote new events. USA Sevens has the capital (and vision) to invest in the development of rugby events. USAR does not have the capital or ability to promote rugby events. USAR needs to find partners with real sports event marketing ability who are willing to invest in events. The alternative is USAR throwing CIPP dues at the USAR managed event certain to lose money.

USA7's has two money making events in major stadiums, with big name sponsors and network television.

USAR can't market free rugby. No sponsors, no TV.

HDC,

San Francisco - Boxer Stadium - hosted international test matches before, USF, SF State and other local colleges nearby with dorms and training facilities. SFO airport is w/in a 30 minute drive.

San Jose - Spartan Stadium - The Earthquakes played there for years, an international airport close by, San Jose State, Santa Clara, and other universities close by to house and train players

Los Angeles/Soccer Stadium in Carson, CA - 1st home of the LA7's. Would have to work a deal with the professional soccer club on their home and away games but could make it work. A number of universities in the area to train and house the players. LAX is an international airport.

Santa Clara - Buck Shaw Stadium, hosted international test matches before, would have to work a deal with the professional soccer club on their home and away games but could make it work. Santa Clara campus and Stanford nearby to house players. Last domestic international with Ireland drew huge crowds

Sacramento - Hughes Stadium, various colleges to house players such as Sac State. International airport nearby.

Sac State, San Diego - Jack Murphy Stadium, Players could be housed and train at SDSU, UCSD, USD. International airport nearby.

Nor Cal,
thank you for doing the leg work to support my position.
HDC- nice jv attempt.
now, back to my haki sack and mayberry rfd re-reuns.

You boys are both making yourself look like tools. The only option you listed that is viable is Buck Shaw... and you say "work a deal with the soccer team" as if it were as easy as writing a contract.

Boxer Stadium: a dump. Expensive for teams to stay in SF. Training fields near there?
Spartan Stadium: Seats 30k. Would look stupid. ARTIFICIAL TURF!
Home Depot Center: USA 7s looked dumb there too in the old days with no attendees.
Buck Shaw: good luck making that deal w the Earthquakes to keep the field for a full month.
Hughes stadium: a football field. Too small.
Jack Murphy: Are you kidding me?!

Let's not forget these stadiums would have to be willing to dig holes in their turf for rugby posts.

Dream on boys.

this topic has run it's course....HDC, enjoy SLC with it's membership only taverns and romney posters.

Read: you lose.

Having worked on smaller scale 7s events, and have thought about this hosting issue in the past, holding this tournament in the Summer does work for many different locations in the USA. The down side is pulling together the pieces when the iRB tells you in December that you won the right to host. Trying to work with non rugby, professional clubs about using facilities after schedules are set ect, just does not work out most times. I am sure that with a year and a deep planning commitment most of the locations and many others would work, I think an area like Michigan would be fantastic with a massive population and multiple university to have access too.. But what is important is time, and funding our current group of athletes to prepare properly to win this event on our home soil, and with our ideal time frame to have full access to the athletes. Go USA.

7's vs 15's,

You are a blowhard, with a west coast bias, and a total ignorance of rugby in the SLC area. You also gave yourself away with your comments about the "membership only taverns". You might want to keep up to date on these things.

Utah will do a fine job of hosting this event.

@huge,
Since i’m in a giving/educating mood:
West coast bias-maybe/likely.
Never said hosting with logistical challenges would be easy.
Never said SLC would NOT do a creditable job of hosting.
My question/point was why SLC and not one of the cities I listed which have BOTH a higher number of existing rugby fan base and venues to support such an event.
Any event/promotions company would select a west coast city versus SLC based on sheer population numbers alone as a way of forecasting sales and attendance.

Show me your supporting evidence that says there are more rugby fans in So/No Cal than SLC.

The event/promotions companies that work(ed) on the Winter Olympics, Sundance, Utah/BYU football, the Jazz, the ski industry, etc all seem to do just fine in the SLC market.

Admit it... you are just another California homer that thinks his rugby is the best. You lose.

HDC,
try less caffeine. if you are so blind as not to see by sheer population numbers alone that CA has a greater number of rugby players at all levels and thus fans, then this discussion cannot continue. you left out rugby as one of your examples of event/promotion success in slc.
quiz: other than HS rugby, how many college and club championships have been won by teams from California compared to teams in Utah? it aint bragging of the facts support it.
game, set and match. now let me get back to work, please.

Last year's Junior World Championship took place in Padova and Treviso, Italy. Not Rome or Milan or Florence or any of the other larger cities in Italy. They chose Padova and Treviso because they have proven they can support rugby events. I would think the same reasoning went into choosing Salt Lake City.

I went to the final last year, and Padova proved it could support an event like that, but they were only expected to fill a 10,000 seat stadium, so a 5,000 seat stadium for the second-tier event seems appropriate. If you really think this should be hosted in a 20,000 seat MLS stadium (or something bigger), you have no clue as to the actual scale of this event.

7's vs 15's,

"other than HS rugby"

This is a JUNIOR tournament, so why discount the demographic of fans that are most likely to attend these matches? Highland, Union, Snow Canyon, Murray, I could keep listing.

Under 20's, playing midweek matches. I'd say the planners have a decent idea of who would go watch, and where to find them.

@Hugh,
I hope the planners are correct and the tourney is a success. the cities i mentioned also have strong youth programs that would support it as well, most likely in greater numbers, AGAIN by sheer demographics alone. that was and is my only point. No disrespsect to slc and the surrounding communites, my original comment was directed at viewership opportunities relating to venue location. please let this die a honorable death...please

I think the rugby community has proven time and time again that they will not turn out for international events regardless of where they are played or who is playing in the game (side note: they don't turn out for domestic events either). The JWT games will be lucky to draw more than a few hundred people per game and that's perfectly fine.

Still, it is good to see the IRB letting some non-home nations host tournaments such as the JWT. It is a good PR move on their part and they understand that there isn't money to be made at events such as these.

For the sake of the teams and players involved, I hope USAR does a good job and everyone involved has a great experience.

1.) I'm pretty sure I saw a graphic floating around (from USAR?) that said Utah had the best per capita youth membership in the country, for what it's worth. I also remember being told that Utah had the 5th-highest number of youth/high school players, which is impressive for a state that's in the bottom half of the country in population (what - maaaaaaybe 3 million?).

2.) Since when did USA Sevens stop losing money? And don't they still hire out national office staffers for the week? They're hardly what they're hyped up to be. I tried getting some information from them and was referenced to a guy in communications in Boulder.

3.) From what I've seen, California has not done nearly as good of a job in supporting rugby events as Utah has. Is there a smaller sample for Utah? Sure. But I can't remember a big event in California that really impressed me. Even USA Sevens couldn't capture enough of California's great population advantage to be truly relevant (that event is now in Las Vegas - a city not much bigger than SLC).

4.) Before anyone attempts this 'you're biased towards SLC' nonsense, I'm a Texan who has never lived in Utah. I'm just impressed that such a tiny area has produced the Warriors, BYU, the University of Utah, Highland, and United.

5.) Other thoughts: San Diego, San Fran, and San Jose are too expensive, Los Angeles is too hot, and Sacramento lacks facilities and isn't too much bigger than SLC. Also, it's not like San Fran and San Jose are hurting for events either - there are events every year at Stanford and Treasure Island.


...The Wildcats are one of the few domestic sides to have beaten the Bears in the last 25 years, defeating Cal, 6-3, at the 1987 San Diego Invitational Tournament. With wins so far in 2012 over ASU and San Diego State, Arizona is a postseason contender whose head coach, Dave Sitton, has expressed his program's "strong commitment to playing Pac-12 games."

Asked whether Arizona supports the development of a traditional conference-based rugby structure, coach Sitton said, "We've been attempting to build our future schedules to make Pac-12 games a priority. We'd love to host a Pac-12 conference tournament every year and we're kicking it off with this visit by the Bears."

...The Sun Devils, who lost a narrow 26-22 match to the Wildcats in December before beating Claremont Colleges, 57-15, in January, figure to be a similar test for the Bears. Arizona State will be at the Las Vegas Invitational the following weekend attempting to earn the remaining at-large bid available at the CRC.

Arizona State head coach Gary Lane echoed Sitton's hope for a Pac-12-based build-out in college rugby.

"I'm a very big supporter of it," coach Lane said. "We already play Arizona, Colorado and Utah. It would make sense to align ourselves, like our football program, with the Pac-12. We'd support that strongly."

You can always tell when Goff lazily just repeats whatever the coaches tell him when he describes these teams as "varsity" and "junior varsity" sides, which they are not. They just call them that on their own. So for the purpose of reporting, its misleading to call them varsity.

SLC was selected because they were willing to do it and it was the easiest option for USA Rugby. It's not like there was a bidding war. There was one bid.

Gary Lane is the biggest joke in collegiate rugby. The guy is a delusional man with little to now respect from the coaching community.

College
Don't be such a douche - Varsity means a team representing a university or college. Some of these coaches might be douches as well, but their teams are representing their universities so they have every right to call them Varsity.

Eagles go 0-3 in Wellington stop of IRB 7s. Losing to South Africa, shut out by England and losing to Cook Islands. Yes. Cook Islands.

That's the day 1 results.

Meh, I'm saving my pennies to see the Eagles v Italy, where ever that may be.

@dont be a...: No, sorry you are wrong. Yes, that is the literal definition of "varsity" that you might find in a dictionary. However, and maybe you havent noticed this, but the word "varsity" has been adopted universally by the American college/university landscape to designate the stable of teams that the university fully supports with coaching, equipment, scholarships, admissions, facilities, etc. Obviously every sport is different and they dont all receive the same amount of support, but they all carry an official designation called "varsity".

This is not what Arizona has. They are not on their athletic department's list of "intercollegiate sports" collectively known as their "varsity sports". So since the vast majority of people assume a team fits the above description when they hear the word "varsity", that is the only way an alleged sports writer should use the word when describing a school's rugby team. So people don't get confused and start thinking they can add ASU to Cal, Davenport, Life, etc in conversations with others about how many varsity programs are in the US. (By your definition there would be thousands. By everyone else's there are a handful)

I applaud ASU for adopting the varsity mentality and even calling themselves "varsity" to reinforce it. It doesnt change the fact that they are not really "varsity" in the eyes of everyone else on earth including their own school. By your logic, ASU's ultimate frisbee team is also varsity as is whatever other niche sport's supporters have decided to form a club for.

All of this is beside the point. My main purpose for my first point was to show an example of when Goff passes off an article as Rugbymag's when it was most likely penned, wholly or in large part, by the team it is about.

BUT...(and I'm not saying I disagree with you), by pairing "varsity" with "junior varsity", you could say that it is less a claim to being a sport under control of the AD and more a way to use local jargon to differentiate between the 1st and 2nd XV. And since a "jv" or second team is not part of the college sports landscape in any "Athletic Department" sport (the concept and term "jv" are strictly high school), use of those terms does not constitute an attempt to muddy the waters and make the rugby team seem more official than it really is.

Digressions from the point are often a lot more fun.

Your main point, that much of Goff's site is basically serving as a press release aggregator, is indisputable.

Canada outperformed the US again. This time in Wellington 7s.

PRJ: You are spot on.

I was just refuting the previous guy's assertion that they were in fact varsity. Yea the use of "junior varsity" should sound off a bell in any reader's head and confuse them about what the heck they are reading. "junior varsity" is what Lane calls his second side. Its unfortunate because it probably confuses the student body and the like. I have no problem with him calling them varsity. I think they'd be better served with giving any side below that the general "reserve" grade that Cal uses.

...back on topic now...

Kurt, why do you have to put such a negative slant on everything you write?!? "A major task for Salt Lake City"? Should read: "A fantastic opportunity for the people of SLC to see some world class age-grade rugby!"

Utah Youth Rugby are very well organized, and are used to putting on major events. I have a hard time believing they'll be stretched to the limit. They will make money off of the event, facilitating a high standard from workers. From what I hear, there are some major opportunities to improve the rugby facilities in the SLC area because of it. It's a win-win!

Always with the doom and gloom. It's not all that bad!

So it should say something like this, "ASU varsity rugby team coached by volunteer Gary Lane look forward to lining up against the Cal varsity rugby team on the intermural sports fields behind the recycling center where after the fraternity flag football matches they will kick off..."

I do wish that, despite the fact that ours is a "British" sport, we did not adopt their subject-verb-number agreement grammar when discussing rugby.

"ASU look forward..." and "Utah are..." make my skin crawl.

Didn't we win a war? Doesn't that give us the right to say "ASU looks forward..." and "Utah is..."?

No, if I was a sports journalist i would just say "ASU is playing Cal." All my readers would know what that meant. I wouldn't designate varsity or not unless that was an actual topic being addressed in the article. I'd also write my articles myself and also use a spell check. I'd even read them over to make sure they were grammatically correct and didnt contain embarrassing typos. None of which Goff/Clifton have learned how to do.

But since ASU, via Lane, wrote part of it and designates their teams as "varsity" and "junior varsity" at every opportunity, the erroneous terminology found its way into the article.

Interesting discussion, here's another view from someone north of the border. I thought I'd take a look online at a Salt Lake City newspaper a few days after the announcement to see what sort of excitement it was generating. I took a look at the Salt Lake Tribune and searched for rugby. Nada, nothing relating to hosting the JWRT.

That brings up the "rugby culture" of the host city. Are there any cities in the US where this would have made front page news on the sports page?

Yes. Glendale (if they have a newspaper).

Most college basketball teams have JV sides. You just don't ever hear about them, because, well, why would you? If collegiate rugby wants to be considered a legit sport, we should stop reporting on B-side, or JV games.

I revise my previous use of the word 'most.' But there are more JV teams out there than you would think.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=oneil_dana&id=3231442

I would actually guess that most non-scholarship schools (which is the majority of college athletics) have some sort of JV set up. The DIII college I went to, and we played against DI-AA (when that still existed) teams in football.

"Today only a handful of Division I teams even have jayvee programs, most of them military academies or Ivy League schools."

I don't think that is more than I would have thought there to be in the world of college basketball.

Its interesting to read all of these posts arguing about the location of the Junior World Trophy within the USA. Why don't we start with being happy that we are hosting the JWRT first? That our U20s are playing in an international tournament, at home, in front of family and youth. Second, Utah has a large Tongan population, guess who's in the tournament? Yup Tonga. We know their games will be attended. I've been to Utah many times for rugby games and they do a fantastic job of putting on events. Instead of looking at any reason possible to have a go at the organizers, go and check out the games. There should be some good ones.
If you wanted to weigh into the idea of a large city or small, SLC is not a bad choice as having an international event in a smaller city could have the possibility of being "the thing" in the city on those days and with high schoolers out for summer break, could draw a larger crowd.

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