Argentina Jaguars 35 United States 14 (halftime: Jaguars 12-11)

Six penalty goals from Benjamin Urdapilleta paced the Argentine Jaguars to a 35-14 Churchill Cup win over a United States XV that offered some new faces but continued to struggle offensively.

Again relying on the forwards, the Eagles took an 11-6 lead following Gavin DeBartolo's five pointer at 31 minutes. Yet despite a man advantage, before half the hosts surrendered six points from a penalty and a long drop goal; immediately afterward, with the sides level, they gave up a crucial seven.

Agustin Gosio's 41st-minute try, made by Urdapilleta's clever chip, marked the game's turning point. Although Dan Power landed a 45-yard penalty at 56 minutes to bring the count to 19-14 Jaguars, in practice the US mustered sparse attacking opportunities during the second frame.

As was the case against Ireland and Wales, the US backline rarely threatened the defense and possession won by the forwards was often recycled right back to the forwards. Lineout woes also persisted.

Like the Wales game, the US was heavily penalized -- 10-3 in the first half alone -- and fueled by Denver's altitude, Urdapilleta stroked penalties at 60, 64, and 69 minutes. The CUBA center's goalkicking overwhelmed a two-to-one try count.

Argentina's second try, at 75 minutes, came from a weakside scrum move which showcased the speedy Jaguars' running lines as well as the US tendency to tackle down rather than defend to the outside.

Though winnable, the match was more a yardstick of the national team's trajectory since 2006 than a read on Eddie O'Sullivan's tenure.

The Jaguars were largely a home-grown, home-based team. By contrast, the USA's emphasis on 'professionalism' has led it down a path whereby newcomers like Sean Pittman, Scott Lavalla, and Colin Hawley were on the field with players who may be quite skillful and better trained but neither live nor play on American soil.

The issue is how the Roberts-Melville administration's talk of developing 'pathways' and its heavy 'high performance' spending has yielded such an unsustainable player pool -- because there is no question that it is not working. The United States is 4-18 (.182%) over the past four years, a record bolstered by three wins against Uruguay and one over Barbados, and has also dropped games to preseason Irish and French clubs and now the Jaguars.

The US depth chart will be tested again by the tight turnaround for Sunday's match against the tournament favorites, the England Saxons.

Afterward, a clutch of European-based players are expected to return for the June 20 Georgia match. It is the July 4 and 11 World Cup qualifiers against Canada that will mark the summer, and indeed the years following the last World Cup, as a success or failure.

Argentina Jaguars 35 United States 14

United States
Try: Gavin DeBartolo
Penalty goals: Gavin DeBartolo (2), Dan Power

Argentina Jaguars
Tries: Agustin Gosio, Belisario Agulla
Conversions: Benjamin Urdapilleta (2)
Penalty goals: Benjamin Urdapilleta (6)
Field goal: Martin Rodriguez

Referee: Brian Fitzgerald (Ireland)
Attendance 1,800 (estimate)

Comments

[WTF]

Winnable? Are you serious? What match did you watch Kurt? The Canadians were in a winnable match against the Irish A, but the Eagles were not in the match after the try to start the second half. For a team to be in a winnable match they need to be within a score in the final 10 minutes, and not down by two scores with 25 minutes left and not score again for the rest of the match while leaking another 13 points to the competition. Let's have some honesty in what happen. Eagles were blown out in the second half when the Jaguars took over the match. Eagles played 40 minutes of rugby with fresh players, against a team with 3 days rest.

[amateurs???]

"The Jaguars were largely a home-grown, home-based team. By contrast, the USA's emphasis on 'professionalism' has led it down a path whereby newcomers like Sean Pittman, Scott Lavalla, and Colin Hawley were on the field with players who may be quite skillful and better trained but neither live nor play on American soil."

Given the state of the game in the US it would NOT be a bad thing to have all of our best players overseas playing professionally.

Is the inference that top quality players either forgeign born with American credentials or top Americans with the ability to play professionally should not but should instead play in the US?

Fully 1/3 of the Argentinian side that started against the Eagles were professionals from UK / French clubs. I do not define that team as largely home based / home grown.

Our home grown game is light years away from producing a cempetition that will regularly turn out international caliber athletes. And that is going to have to start at with developing a legit collegiate competition.

Like it or not our best Americans are going to have to look to play overseas to get better and trolling for "American" talent, while distasteful to some, is something that every country in the world does to one degree or another. New Zealand may be the biggest poachers in the world. The All Blacks could easily be the South Pacific Barbarians - they regularly turn out players with roots to Fiji, Samoa, and Tonga.

And our young talent benefits from playing with talented players.

And please note that 10 years ago players such as Scott Lavalla and Sean Pittman did not exist. We are just starting to see a generation of talented athletes that have experiences that start before college - that is a good thing indeed!

This was an incredibly young group of players mixed in with some old hands and in the first half in particular they did alright for themselves.

[overall record]

The Melville and Roberts 4-18 record is a test record and it doesn't include this defeat because it isn't a test I presume.

If you add the 'A' loses in the Churchill Cup over the last three seasons to this the forth, add in the loses against Claremont and a couple against Munster the overall record must be more like 4-26 overall.

The Eagles performance under this CEO and President of Rugby (what a dumb title) and Kiwi lite Chairman have been the worse in US rugby's existence. They have had more support than any group before them and have achieved the worse record.

[Kiss your sister]

The game was winnable.
The attack coach should be fired.
The lineout coach should be fired.
The defense coach should be fired.
The backs coach should be fired.

Ok, so how does this compare to Scott Johnson's staff?

Pretty much the same, but EOS is selecting better players and tucks his shirt in.

The game was absolutely winnable. There were some tactical blunders out there that could have been avoided. There appears to be no continuity plan or urgency to create a linebreak.

By all measures Eddie O'Sullivan is playing for the tie.

[geico]

Yes but our next team down the US selects have also lost three times to amateur sides like English Counties and the Heartland XV. Oh sorry, this is helping is it.

[T3]

U20s went winless in last years JWC and were bounced down to the Junior World Rugby Trophy and lost to Kenya and Romania. They did beat the Cayman Islands and Namibia (barely). Regardless of history or national pride, the reality is that now after 12 years of world rugby being a professional sport, we are a strong Tier 3 nation based on the results of our national teams, the quality of management and the quantity of sponsors and media. USA is a solid Tier 3 rugby nation.

[why oh why]

If the Eagles are going to lose by three tries to the Argentina development team, why not play US players?

We shouldn't care where our Eagles were born, but we should care they are part of our US rugby set up.

It's great to have our American players come home to represent the US, but we should draw the line at flying in marginal foreign players with no connect to our US rugby.

MacKay, Gagiano, Usasy, DeBartolo and Sifa have no business representing the Eagles unless they want to immigrate to the US. For a third of the team to have no connection to US rugby and to be this ordinary as ringers is foolish.

[Scoreboard]

Last time I checked DeBartolo scored almost all of our points, and is able to pin opponents with his leg, you want to send him packing?

[American Punter]

DeBartolo is a special athlete.

He can boot the ball like an All-County American Football punter. There may be only 3 or 4 hundred of those guys in the United States that can do that right now.

How can USA Rugby produce a home grown DeBartolo?
That is the answer that the English Punter, Nigel Melville, should have answered 4 years ago.

DeBartolo is a heck of a rugby player. When he is flanked by hard, elite athletes on the wing, things will come together.With Power at 10, things look very bright for the Eagles, if the coaches can put two and two together and not come up with something odd.

[FIREWATER]

On a side note when did the city of Glendale put down turf(grass) at Infinity Park? I thought it was "sports turf".

[Skinner]

It is the same turf found at Mile High - same designers, same contractors, same drainage, watering and heating system underneath.

Hell of a field and hell of a stadium complex.

Funnily enough, no IRB money involved, and no Commonwealth influence - just good old American planning and sweat.

[firsthand]

Glendale's main field has NEVER been any variation of artificial turf, it has always been grass.

[Thoughts?]

Eagles backline against Canada should be:

9. Petri
10. Power
11. Swiryn
12. Emerick
13. Wyles
14. Z
15. DeBartolo

[FIREWATER]

Thanks for the knowledge. That is some great turf.

[Just a D2 rugger]

DeBartolo had a good game, but I see Why oh why's point. Unless he is there to mentor a U.S. bred fullback, I don't see why he is there. I would rather see us lose by 60 with a team made up of U.S. college players and super leaguers than bring in these ringers just to keep the point differential under 30.

Also there is a fundamental flaw for the U.S. in poaching foreign ringers. The problem is that if a funny talker has U.S. ties, but still has a possibility to play for NZ, England, or any other tier 1 rugby nation, they are not going to play for the U.S. Which means we are stuck with players that have not shot with playing with a tier 1 team. So our plan has been to use players not remotely good enough to make other national teams which, at the same time, prevents us from developing a player of our own at that position - genius.

[Scraps]

DeBartolo is a solid club player with Eastern Suburbs in the Sydney Premier Rugby competition, but after Super 14 signings he saw little playing time in either the Western Force or the Waratahs side in 2007 and 2008 respectively. It isn't a case that DeBartolo can not make the Wallabies, it is a case where he can not earn a spot on a Super 14 side.

[Nice work Dunafon!!]

Yes Glendale has a nice field!! Great to have it available to the rugby community.

It is amazing what you can do when you have a little American payoffs and back room deals.

You can do anything, when you payoff the right people....

[only in USAR]

Did Dunafon beat those allegations?

Let's lose with players from our US rugby community. Preferably US born, but if not US born, at least individuals who have moved their lives to America.

May I suggest if we are going to use a ringer, they are really fu*king good. How weak is it to use an average ability ringer. That's an only in USAR story.

[Flynn Hagerty]

"So our plan has been to use players not remotely good enough to make other national teams which, at the same time, prevents us from developing a player of our own at that position - genius."

It's a non sequitur to claim that playing a foreign player over a domestic player prevents the US from developing a domestic player. For one thing, we're not necessarily sure there are comparable domestic players. For example we've tended to play foreign born flyhalves for most of the time I've been following rugby (1999) because with the exception of Link Wilfley, no American has been as good as the foreign alternatives. Hopefully Maximo or Volney step up but I don't think it's EOS's job to throw players he doesn't think are there yet in the mix because Dan Power is a funny talker.

Now it should be used judiciously to make sure there is good morale amongst everybody in American rugby and because there aren't that many guys with American ties abroad who are better players than what's coming out of the USA. But I have no problems with the concept.

[firsthand]

You may not have a problem with losing by 60 with a couple college kids at key positions but I bet the players on the team give a shit if they get smashed because they had someone in the team who was out of his depth. It is stupid to think we would build the national team with college kids who would get murdered at this level. The point of all this is to get the Eagles to a place where they are good enought to attract athletes to rugby. IF the Eagles get smashed every game than it is far less attractive to some kid who's on the fence about rugby. This isn't necessarily about development but about having something attractive so you have athletes thinking they have something work hard for.

[Just a D2 rugger]

Flynn,

I respectfully disagree in regards to the development issue. If you bring in a foreign player, that is reps, resources, and exposure that could go to someone else. Even though the Eagles aren't a premier national team, they still play at a higher level than any us super league team. As such, playing for the eagles would be a chance for a super leaguer to develop at a higher level. For every foreign player we bring in, that's one less player we can develop at that level. Other than as possible mentors (which I will admit might be a good idea, especially for a position like flyhalf) I don't see a good reason to bring in foreign players with nominal ties to US rugby. I'd rather lose by 60 at get more US players exposure and development at test rugby than bring in mercenaries to just lose by 30.

[Tough Road]

Uruguay looked good today against a full strength Romanian side that included all their professional players (half of total side) from France and UK in an IRB Nations Cup match. Uruguay is a side of amateurs playing for home clubs, and were physically out matched in height and weight. They played with a lot of structure, control and ambition in attack, and their defense was sound holding the Romanians scoreless in the second half. They lost 17-11.

I do not think the Eagles are going to get past Canada, and after I do not think that Uruguay is going to be a push over for the Eagles. Uruguay has 2 more matches in the Nations Cup against Scotland A and Russia to prepare for their 2011 WC Qualifiers.

[sideline eye]

I have read this blog for sometime and find it interesting that the eagle’s players are not criticized more often for their on-field play. They seem to get a pass because they're not "professional"! I think the frustration should lie with the "talent" on the field not living up to the task of test rugby. Coaches 'good or bad' should not need to "coach the fundamentals" of the game at an international level. It takes more than being the fastest, fittest, strongest and most youthful athlete to play you need to know how to play the game....you get that by playing at any club level not at the international level, international rugby players are expected to know how to play not be given a chance to play. Watching the games of the Churchill Cup, and previous ones this past year...some of the players representing the eagles are missing the fundamentals more often than not throughout the course of the game not just catching, passing and tackling but decision making and ability to read the opposition and in particular play by the rules of the game. It is very frustrating watching a game that is so riddled with penalties and forced errors at are easily avoided. Being good for only 40 or even 50 or 70 minutes shows that your not mentally prepared. Too many times we say we were in with a chance, but..., lets get beyond the "what ifs" and off-field antics. The players need to step up and be accounted for...I am not criticizing the player’s efforts; I am saying make those efforts constructive and consistent for 80 minutes or more. Let’s get a W!
Frustrated sideline eye.

[Total Rugby]

Saw a clip today of EOS with the Eagles on the IRB show Total Rugby. The teams was shown doing some of the most basic "skills" drills. EOS is obviously trying to build from the very basics.

[Move the contact area]

Total,
Basics have their place in rugby.
It has its place now with the Eagles.
Nothing wrong with that.
The issue is the basic gameplan and patterns. A forward oriented attack doesn't produce many linebreaks.

Backs produce linebreaks.
Kicking to the corners is great, if we understand how to contest the lineout properly.

We should be able to do both. Right now we do neither.
Tactically we are retarded, not sure if the current staff is capable of figuring this out. The last staff was worse

[dwarf tossing]

How many offloads will the Saxons have while running through midfield midget town.

[7 Days of Rugby]

Sideline,
It is difficult to criticize players that don't have much of a chance for success. I will give the players the benefit of the doubt.

The last coach was a moron when it came to selecting, this coach is living in the dark ages of gameplans.

We all know what will happen this game. The forwards will loosen up, we will play better defense one on one. The backs will get a bit more ball. We will be on the back foot all day long.

Again, we will be methodical, predictable, and gullible in the lineout.
Petri's two step delivery and Hercus half step to the outside gap will produce 2 lines breaks, 3 knockons, 4 WTFs, 5 turnovers, 6 broken ribs, 7 points from a Hercus double miss pass the the Saxon's winger.

This game could be winnable with an innovative lineout and not selecting speedbumps in the midfield.

[David C]

As far as the lineout goes, ANYTHING can be better then what they currently have. I'd rather have someone throw it quarterback style and be accurate, then the apathetic throw-in's they currently have. The limp wristed, ducks they are currently throwing are pathetic.

[Ron]

What website do I need to go to to watch the Eagles game today? I went to the USA Rugby website and not surprisingly it had no information.

[lv_rugger]

I found it interesting watching the Italy v Australia game today that Italy has as many non-Italian players as they do!

Italy is ranked #12 by the IRB, plays in the Six Nations and has a strong domestic competition, yet has to rely on an Australian #10 and #15 and several South African forwards.

If Italy cannot grow there own players to play Internationally, where does that leave the US?

[HA!]

And half the ones with Italian surnames are from Argentina!

[David C]

Ron, I'm watching the game on Setanta

[Web 2.0]

Tried to watch the Mens' Collegiate All-Star match that was streamed, and it was start-stop start-stop. Why can't USA Rugby sort out the live streaming matches? Obviously the streaming of live matches is an opportunity to provide potential broadcasters some numbers on the viewership, but if the service stinks you are not going to get the numbers.

[Aussie Bogans]

The worst part about watching Australia at home is listening to the Aussie commentators whine about everything and exaggerating every piece of action. Makes Brian Lowe from ARN seem less of a bogan. The Saffer and Kiwi commentators are much more enjoyable and knowledgeable than the Aussies.

[Elton John]

Rocket Man may be the only highlight of this Eagles v Saxon match for the American supporters.

[Flynn Hagerty]

This feed is a joke!

[bEagles]

2-step Petri and no-guts Hercus need to go.

[2 steps away from trash]

2 steps to get away from dirty breakdowns. when its clean he gets it out from the base. just like any good 9. its not his fault the breakdown is trash. learn the game before u defame.

[Dancing with the stars]

2 step,
Fair enough. It is quite dirty at times, but the gate is the responsibility of the scrumhalf moreso than the coach. MP is guilty of two stepping after a linebreak, which is a sin in my book. He is a good player, just has some bad habits that I guess he has to sort out on his own?

[Chicken Dance]

He does it when under pressure and when he is not. It is not a 2-step, it is a chicken step. He is afraid to get hit.

Chicken Dance Petri is an Eagle reserve at best, and EOS knows it and replaced him early.

[2 steps away from trash]

afraid to get hit. thats hilarious.

[Beagles]

Chicken Dance Petri -- HAHAHA! Sad but true.

The "dirty breakdowns" are opportunities for darting attacks for a number 9. It looked to me that somewhere he picked up the habit of his 2-step service, which is criminal at the test level.

[2 steps away from trash]

so hilarious because as anyone with a working brain knows, the quicker you get the ball out the less contact you take. throwing from the base is the safest way. taking any sort of step increases the probablility of getting hit since as soon as you move the ball it is out. no big deal. its just your credibility. but you of course dont use your name when you crap on people.

[Runway flag guy]

At least MP doesn't have to use 8 forwards to secure a breakdown. TU is a good player as well, but man, doesn't he (or EO) know that he puts tons of pressure on the backs facing 4 on 6 from slow ball with that stuff? And why does Usasz have to point wherever he is going to attack next? Is he a mute, is he a runway flag guy?

Why are we bridging and laying all over the ball? Why can't we get through the contact area, like they do on our ball?

This is dark ages stuff.

Laying all over the ball and bridging produces crap ball. Fine if you are playing defense, but on our own ball?

Who are the brilliant minds that have come up with this gameplan?

The contact area coach, the back selector, the attack coach, the lineout coach all need to be shown the door.

This is crap rugby. Nobody knows where the ball is going and guys are doing their own things. This is a complete joke.

[bEagles]

MP, Petri, 2-step, Chicken-Dance, whatever....the guy is not a test rugby #9. Hercus too.

We are in a country with huge numbers of big athletes with soft hands, and we can't seem to instill an offload game. WTF!

[WTF]

Look at the ideas that Mike "Chicken Dance" Petri has in the rugby press

http://rugbyrugby.com/news/by_country/usa/story_14609173405.php

How cute! Dance chicken boy dance...then pass!

[BC22]

You guys are seriously pathetic. You don't have anything constructive to offer, all you can do is come in here and insult people who are giving their best?

Especially the personal insults towards people who actually want to see the sport succeed in this country. It almosts makes me think you're not really a rugby fan at all.

[this board is trash]

a) that is like 2 quotes from petri and the assclowns at rugbyrugby decided to trump it up and call it his vision. stupid article.

b) the guy was selected to the Barbarians. stfu all of you.

[Midget tosser]

If the ability to offload were a prereq for being in the Eagle pool, we'd lose 20 players right now.

It takes a level of athleticism, skill and size to be able to do that. It is a necessity. The back line that Eddie put out there was only capable of slowing the game down.

[Fu*K Debartolo]

First, I think Petri is a good player. Second, regardless of what you think of his play, you can absolutely not question his Patriotism and dedication to the game in this country. Would you rather have more guys like DeBartolo who have absolutely no connection to America and therefore pull a stunt like he did before this latest match?

[Nigel]

F*K DeBartolo,
You have a point. Maybe when the next DeBartolo pulls a stunt like this, we'll figure it out. We have a long track record of being gullible you know.

What I really want to know is exactly what happened to cause this rift. Was it that D'Bart thought Eddie's offense and back selections were a complete fooking joke. Was D'Bart sold something that was not delivered by Melville? Was DeBart just being DeBart?

He is the best 15 the Eagles have had in 20 years.

Is it me or has the athleticism of the eagles declined in the last 20 years?

[Flynn Hagerty]

What did DeBartolo do specifically? Goff is short on specifics.

[made in America]

Well "he pulled out" according to EOS. That's everything I need to know. If he had a family emergency they would have said so.

Instead typical Alex Goff, who is as lame of a reporter as you can get says, he has a rep for being hard to work with or some rubbish such as this. Code for he's a punk.

For whatever reason he pulled out. This still leaves the Eagles with too many fly-in players for my liking. The 10 foreign born players in the 22 don't bother me, its the fly-ins with no connection to US rugby that need to go.

What's with all the hate for Petri. He's a good America kid trying hard. He's not great, but he's all we got. The fly-in guy isn't that much, if any, better. The Eagles should stay with the American kid.

Shit lets remember we are just trying to lose better. Why would we need ringers, to beat Georgia?

[Beagles]

I remember Debartolo having behavior issues when he first signed with a Super 14 team.

It is a shame that the Georgia team is missing all of their French players (16 I recall) for the Churchill Cup. It would have given the Eagles a good benchmark on where they are at in the IRB rankings prior to the Canada match, which is really the only chance to see where the Eagles stand on the IRB rankings because all these sides they have been playing are not full strength. That was the England 3rd sider considering that half their pack is with the Lions in SA and the next best group is in Argentina. Ditto for Ireland and Wales. Would have been better if the Italians toured to North America because we would have had a true international side to play.

[Flag waving guy]

Made in America,
You are completely right.
Usasz is a marginal scrumhalf.
Petri is American.

What is with all of the finger pointing, repositioning, slow to a halt attack from that Usasz guy?

It looks like he is trying to guide the mother ship home or something - very strange.

[bruce mclane]

To call DeBartolo the best FB we've had in 15 years is not true, Wyles who is on this team is better, not to mention players like Mark Williams who came before him.

To call Petri a chicken is laughable at best, that kid gets stuck in and makes hits and plays tough defense, I know first hand as his coach.

To avoid signing your name when you decide to be a critic is chicken.

I will offer all of the anonymous experts an interview in an ARN column so that we could learn from you and so that your expertise can be given so that others can learn from you. It would be nice to be able to publicize and be educated by people who are afraid to be named.

I for one enjoy a lot of the posts on gainline and erugbynews, and I get a lot of ideas from them, but anonymous bashing of players and coaches is cowardly.

Sign your name, it is not hard to do that, and if you are afraid to sign, it is best to refrain from posting personal attacks.

[I Believe]

I believe the Eagles will be better without DeBartolo.

I believe Petri is a stud kid and deserves to be the guy.

I believe EOS changed his game plan up from the forward pod stuff and the team had more line-breaks and got better, played better, looked better.

I believe the lineout got better in the second half. (scrum is a problem)

I believe Paul E. is a stud and will make a major difference in the team.

I believe when we put our best player within the 22 we will give Canada a match, maybe beat them.

I believe Bruce McLane gives more cowardly personal attacks in his pod-cast rants than any 10 anon people on these blogs.

[bruce mclane]

I believe that last line was funny, and I believe in a lot of what you said.

[McLane Dance Academy]

Coach McLane,

Are you responsible for teaching Petri the 2-step service to his #10?

[bruce mclane]

If you are unhappy with the way Petri is coached, recruit him away from the NYAC.

If you don't like Petri or how he plays, and he couldn't help your team, develop someone to take his place on the Eagles.

That is a tall order, Petri is a great player, he is a hard worker, he is a student of the game, and he has had success in the USA at all levels.

Maybe you could sign your name in the future, Petri might want to seek out your expertise.

[College coach who won't sign his name because he doesn't want his personal views to be attributed to his college or his players]

Bruce-

We get it. You don't like it when people bash you or your players and don't sign their name. But if you desire for the sport of rugby to become even relatively mainstream in this country, you better get used to it. Do yourself a favor and go to any college sports forum and see how many users are posting with their "real names." None. And see how many of them of making personal atacks on various players and coaches. All of them. And see how many of these coaches are spending their time on the message boards responding to this stuff. None. Focus your energy on continuing to help move the game forward in this country and stop responding to every joker's anonymous posts about Petri. The kid is a good player and he gives American youth players someone to look up to and aspire to be like. Congrats on the role you've played in his development. Now we just need you to churn out about 20 more just like him so we can stop bringing in DeBartolos and Gagianos.

http://sport.iafrica.com/rugby/news/1271360.htm

[McLane Dance Academy]

Based on that reply I will assume you taught Petri the 2-step jig service to his 10.

[ARN pod cast]

Bruce would never say something negative to a persons face because he would get his ass kicked.

A five foot nothing, chubby, bag of wind.

A face and body made for the radio, or in this case pod cast.

[Flynn Hagerty]

I need to rewatch the game on TV (crappy internet feeds just aren't good for analysis) to look at Petri's play, but IMO a scrumhalf who doesn't pass the ball directly out of the ruck is not fulfilling a key part of being a scrum half. For whatever reason - I'd love to hear a coach explain it - scrum halves these days seem to love taking a few steps out. I know the systemic attempts by the IRB to take the teeth out of the ruck haven't helped, but NOT passing the ball out of the base of the ruck gives the opposition back row a good second of time and space to constrict the available options for an attacking flyhalf.

[bruce mclane]

Most SH including Petri generally pass direct from the base.

When they snipe they try to draw the #2 defender (guy next to guard) to come in, then look for the #3 to go out for 10 and leave a hole for the fwd runner to come through.

When teams play a lot together they have other options, but that is basically it.

if #2 lets SH go then he goes, if #1 (guard)follows 9 and leaves a gap, 9 dumps a gregan ball back. if #3 cracks down as well, 9 can then hit 10 and he could have a gap or a good short ball option.

Basically if on defense if #2 cracks down on 9, all crack down, what a running SH does is try to create confusion and opportunity off the base, by seeing if the defense will all do their roles properly

that is the short version

[Flynn Hagerty]

It's funny you mention Gregan, he was terrible at doing this. He did this but he never actually sniped, so it was easy to play against because he had in his mind that he was going to pass no matter what. Thanks to him, Larkham had Richie McCaw in his grill by the time he got the ball.

The whole idea of sniping and drawing in defenses is good, but in the end I'd rather have my flyhalf with an extra second on the ball and let him make the decisions. Then snipe when the defense is playing off the base of the ruck and not protecting it.

[this board is trash]

great explanation bruce. really. i wish this board talked more about, you know, rugby.

[slow children ahead]

BM,
I cringe after every pick and jam and cheeky snipe attempt after a linebreak.

When the pocket is soft (where the defense is strongest), imagine what is feels like for a center running forward!!
I also have a problem with Hercus after a linebreak, he has wasted many opportunities by insisting on making the last pass.

While Petri can shed these bad habits over time, Hercus is a lost cause. Don't get me wrong, both players should be in the squad, but maybe they need a stern talking to by the backs coach. Lol, expect more of the same.

[bruce mclane]

actually gregan sniped quite well when younger and that dumpback was what created the need for the guard, in effect gregan put 2 extra defenders next to a ruck to stay home and left space for those aussie backs to exploit further out. larkham was also a great runner with great vision, so having confusion in the roles of the defenders at 1,2,3,4 often created awesome space to hit (especially since 2-3 of those guys were in the front 5)

in recent times the fijian sh rauluni is the best at it, because not only does he snipe effectively, if he is caught by the 2 defender he often can get the ball around his head and hit a runner inside of him while the gregan ball runner occupies the guard.

it is not easy to do, but quite effective and you can see how well he did it in the 2007 RWC

but flynn you are right that gregan seldom threatened later in his career, yet he was very effective nonetheless. not disimilar to mose timoteo from SFGG, who was an effective sniper when younger but now the fact you have to respect his threat really leaves gaps, and it also allows him to use his great boot. i say that timoteo was always a player i have enjoyed watching and combining his great pass, boot and running ability has made him a tremendous asset to rugby in the USA and now he is a super league champ. those snipes left room for a strong set of forwards to get go forward that they sucked in defenders with so that rouse could set his team off out a little wider.

[slow children ahead]

Flynn,
Gregan is responsible for Larkham being considered the hardest flyhalf in the world.

Two steps (Petri) and a pass, plus a diagonal run (Hercus) and shovel pass, equals a turnover against international competition.