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03 December 2008

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Ignoring the school-sports model and adopting the commonwealth model (designed for countries the size of newyork) = the biggest failure by usarugby. so freaking disappointing

It's only the IRB that can help us now.

They put this Board, officers and coaches in place. They used their consultants to shove this plan down our windpipe. They have completely wasted many millions of the games dollars.

The IRB needs to understand rugby can work in the United States, but they will need to think like Americans to make it happen. Taking advise from their foreign consultants and their hand-picked foreign employees will only get them more of the same.

The worse aspect of this whole mess is the fact the average US rugby players no longer knows anything about his rugby union. Nothing about our plans, budgets, leadership, nothing.

I am an old rugbyhead from the early, early days. I have sat back and watched rugby change and evolve, some times for the better, some times for the not so better. One thing that was constant though was that it was ours. Ours to be proud of, ours to fix when broken.

My board member (the old board) represented me, reported back to me, and I, in turn felt responsible to stay involved and work on building the game at the youth, and high school levels. I was an officer at the LAU level, and spent a ton of my free time working on rugby in my area. Then there was much more accountability, reporting, and review than what has been going on in the last few years. All this led to buy in.

I don't want things to go back or even stay the same, I want them to improve and grow. This IRB money could have been our chance, but so many of us are now marginalized by the decisions of the consultants, Latham and friends. My LAU, TU are in the dark, my club could not care any less what new excuse the Eagles have for losing. I do, so I keep my foot in the door by going to games, watching rugby on tv, and reading this and other websites.

We used to do what we could and maybe that wasn't good enough, but at least we recognized each other and worked together in the trenches. I can't make sense out of anything about USA Rugby. The direction, the leaders and leadership, the plans in place, the selection criteria for the national teams, nothing. Am I alone ? Apparently not.

I don't give a rat's ass about politics and personalities. I do care about accountability, transparency and getting the job done.

What could be more open than the open tryouts that Peter Thorburn had for the Eagles.
When has there ever been 30-40 American coaches go to an Eagle assembly to watch 3 All Black staff coaches in action like in San Diego last year.
When has an Eagles coach ever been invited to All Black training sessions like Johnson was this year.
When has anyone ever had the credibility to merit attracting the Wallabies & All Blacks to play in America like Melville has.

Thanks, lets build on that type of good work.


"Thanks", you made the point to which Kurt is reveiwing (by the way do you know how many coaching courses have taken place in the last 10 years by just as respected coaches)

Are we any better for it...you never said a thing about the dozens of rugby coaches from the top nations, their staffs, administrators, etc working/visiting with NFL, NBA and college American sports. We have not better for this latest coaching course thing that is not connected to an elite coaching pathway, we bring in people from abroad (we need some) and rely soley on what they think! How does this institutionalize the game, how does it grow, something every 2-3 years, etc.

The All Black Game is because for the first time they need it, they are loosing money (running at a lost in NZ) Aus is close behind they must find cash games. We and they seem to be willing to gamble with their brands and ours...yes gamble, if, big if it comes off and that means at least half full investco field with clever TV angles, they go home happy to NZ and Aus and we get what...TBD.

This is about timing for Nigel, not a proactive get er done stuff.

Thanks - this is off the point of Kurt's series, but since you take exception to Stephen's comments, I will play along

First, were you there at the camp in SD ? I had a best friend who coaches a club team there and he said it was a joke. Why ?

In reality what occurred was that Thorburn used his connections to bring over some guys that really do coach for a living and coach our national team for a few sessions, something that was too big a task for the old fella and his assistants (who were they again?).

Did it help foster any greater understanding in the team or for the coaches that attended ? NO. A new drill is just that, a new drill.

Our new aussie coach says the domestic competition is crap, that the national team players are just " rugby participants", so the competition and domestic coaches aren't any better for attending the camp is sounds.

There was no material or lasting effect, just a 3 day jolly in San Diego in Wintertime. Good work if you can get it (and the IRB is paying).

Next, oh yeah, Johnson goes and hangs out with the AB's, cool. Did it help us defeat Canada ? Japan ? NO. So, no material effect there either, but I bet it was on USA Rugby's/the IRB dime.

Next - Open try outs you say ? Ok, with the IRB grant having to be converted over from it's originally intended purpose to fund the national team, due to USA Rugby's failings, let's hold a camp to learn that there are a lot of players not up to performing at the test level. Don't worry, it is the IRB's money footing the bill, have another.

End result - the value of a test cap is lessened because several nice guys are "handed" test caps that were never going to make it, and never earned a second or third appearance.

This is Thorburn's legacy, that and winning 2 matches. That Kiwi really kicked some ass.

What else would am I supposed to be thankful for again ?

When something self sustaining and meaningful gets done I will be the first to say well done, but the poor performance and lack of accountability makes me want to hurl.

I was in SD. I thought it was valuable. Mike Cron broke down the scrum and explained his techniques very precisely. That session has given me a framework to help my undersized teams function adequately at scrum time in most cases.

I thought Mick Byrne's kicking skills portion was valuable as well. It is something we should really focus on.

Dave Ellis did the handling session in an entertaining fashion and he showed a lot of techniques that Mike Tolkin has used to pretty good effect at our training sessions at NYAC and Xavier.

Nigel Melville did some handy sessions on SH pass development.

I do believe they were paid for their time in the USA, although I am not certain of that.

That being said, foreign coaches love coming here and many top class coaches have and continue to come to the USA to teach and will continue to come and teach.

I am not saying some of the coach portion of the breakout sessions couldn't have been improved, but the quality of the content from the Kiwi coaches that time in SD was pretty valuable. To me and I am pretty comfortable saying Mike Tolkin and Paul Keeler as well, it was certainly not a joke.

Rugby is a pretty simple game, no one is going to be able to come in and give us a magic bullet that will make us Tier 1 overnight and while I understand and agree with a lot of the frustration around, I would have to say that the quality of the SD camp and the access to the eagle set up and training sessions was something that I personally found to be valuable. There is a lot to criticize, giving coaches access to top coaches who share information with us should not be one of them.

Bruce, fair enough, and value was had, I think the frustration from the previous poster comes from this is not continued as part of an elite coach pathway, that the mentors and or other pieces they tried, or the next thing or the next is not outlined in a plan. We have no American coaches in the pipeline, because there is not pipeline.

The lack of a series of events, monitored and mentored, with real direction is the frustration, as one poster and you have said, a lot of value is given by guest coaches, but then where are we left when the next session is a year after?

When it comes to coaching...there is no pathway. There is an elite coaches course now and yet the all american coaches, and the new U-18 coach are not even in them, nor was there and application process. There is no coaching pathway in America, and we will never improve as a country without improved domestic coaching. Thank God for the likes of Bruce Mclane,Mike Tolkin, Paul Keeler, O'Brien, ,Ferrel, Battle, Laczewski(and others) who actually share information with other people, and take the time to go out and learn for themselves. These guys were born right here in the states and are out there working hard to make rugby better and its shows in their programs.
I also realize that there are coaches who weren't born here and reside here now that are doing the same so it is not a foreigner thing. My point is we finally have Coaches who were brought up in the US sporting cultures and are forced to develop their own pathways and have to nurture themselves.
At least when THORBS was here he recognized that, I heard SJ didnt even speak at the advanced coaches course.

Im going to throw up. Yet another alternative football league is about to open up shot. http://www.allamericanfootballleague.com/ Taking all the college football players that cant make it into the NFL and putting them this p.o.s. These idiots. This will certainly fail like the rest. America I think has finally had its fill of football. Its just ridiculous how saturated the market is. Take all those athletes and put them into a pro rugby union league and play it in the spring. Give Americans a contact sport that can actually stand on its own. It would work beautifully if you ask me. A spring alternative to football that isnt just a watered down football league. A group of investors just have to have the guts to do it. Maybe after this one fails. Jesus. There is a freaking professional soccer league in the U.S. I cannot get over that fact. Feel free to email the guy on the website and tell him why when he feels the whole thing about to go down the drain that he should convert it to rugby.


I think that the membership are the ones putting up barriers to performance.

Do you think that the rule makers in Golf, Formula One, Tennis etc consider the membership? A well administered sporting union is a dictatorship. The NZRFU, SARFU, RFU, WRFU et al do not ask the members how to pursue their HP programmes. They hire people who can dream and deliver.

My experience of coaching in the USA is that it is prescriptive, based on hill sprints for conditioning and totally alien to how the game should be played in the 21st century.

So how many of you feel that you could personally run an organisation that has decades and decades of change to overcome and should be praised for at least taking steps necessary to put it all together.

Geraint, firstly welcome to America. Secondly, what are you talking about?

The game as moving towards a more organized plan. The game of rugby is basically evolving into something quite similar to American Football. Not the rules or anything like that, but the conditioning, the gameplanning, the technical stuff. In my experience with some of these "foreign expert" coaches is that they are living in a dream world where chat replaces hard work and recycled drills replace imagination.

Wake up, you are in America. You are living in a country that has the largest spectrum and greatest professional atmosphere in the world. Call your local College or High School and ask to sit in for a brief period of time. You will learn something in organization. Then call your buddies in Boulder and send them over as well.

Imagine if the focus was on domestic game January thru June and development July thru December.

Just imagine what would get done in a very short period of time. Put it on paper, post it on a calender. I mean for crissakes man, get organized and get productive.

I would imagine that one web savvy person, and an American coach, both working 10 hours per week would have accomplished more in domestic comps and development than the entire Boulder staff has over the last 3 years.

In fact I'd go a step further saying that one College kid, web savvy and dedicated, could have advanced our Union further than our leadership.

I'll even go another step further. Have a 14 year old kid collect all CIPP, pay the bills and turn the money back to the TUs to do with whatever they see fit.

wtf did that post mean?

Geraint,

You're in American dude, try football, basketball and baseball as examples.

If you want to comment on how shitty American coaches are, with your condescending foreign attitude at least don't use 'Formula One' as your example. Yea, we get it, its a international motor sport. But when will you foreign dumb-shits understand that America is the worlds largest sports entertainment market, because of our sports and our systems for developing teams and athletes.

Thankfully, most of the foreign rugby minds of old that settled in America, learned to blend their expertise with the US sports culture and systems. It is only of late this new breed of ignorant foreign behavior has taken root.

The report card for the new foreign breed is clear, even with more money than USAR has ever had, they have failed.

First of all the San Diego clinic was anything but elite! Rick Humm let every Tom, Dick and Jane that owns a rugby shirt attend as a coach. While there were many of our promising young coaches in attendance, there was an equal amount of “social dumb shit rugby coaches” the brain trust was diluted. Simply because one knows about rugby does not mean one is a great coach. In San Diego, Thorburn and his staff were poor, arguing in front of the players; lots of drills with no real game application, scripted programmed “ploys” irrelevant of field position or ball quality followed by bad mouthing each other in front of the other coaches. The AB guys knew their stuff but only Kron and Byrne had some meaningful delivery and articulation, most of Ellis’s stuff was lots of “new drills”, which I am sure wowed the S.D.S.R.C.’s.
I take exception to this notion that we need rely on any "funny talker” to help us become better rugby coaches. When it comes to the skill set of coaching, Americans are the best in the world. I played football for 14 years of my life (Pop Warner to High School and through College). American Football (and Basketball) Coaches are the best coaches around as they teach the curriculum as a progression with massive attention to detail and massive emphasis on basic fundamentals they understand management and team culture.
On the first day of Pop Warner U-7 football, the coach spent an hour on a 3 point stance. If you watch the Dallas Cowboys on the opening day of rookie camp the coach spends hours on a correct 3 point stance. America’s coaching culture has been around forever, much longer than anywhere else in the world.
Enter the great sport of rugby and we stand around waiting for someone with an accent to show us how to “coach our guys?” There are plenty of capable American Rugby Coaches; obviously NM and SJ have no confidence in their ability, so they run for the proven foreign mediocrity. In the same way we developed the Wishbone, the Wing T and the forward pass…American Coaches are and always have been innovators and students of both the sport and the actual skill set of coaching (delivery, progression etc). The best coaches I know when faced with a tactical dilemma watched tape, thought of a fix and then devised a drill that would address that specific situation and train the fix.
Obviously I do not object to coaching clinics and sharing information we need not re-invent the wheel; my point being, rather than focus on the latest and greatest drills or coaches out of the antepodes, I think American Rugby Coaches should focus more on our natural strengths; We need to own our coaching/leadership skill set: skill 1 be able to articulate the plan, execute it, and revaluate; skill 2 be able to identify a problem and then craft a fix for it, then train the fix. I am not convinced our current staff is able to achieve either of these; it is far easier to lay it off on the player’s lack of fitness and ability.
Maybe the next coaching clinic could be Nigel, Johnno , Thorbs and all the other IRB pensioners going and listening to Mike Shanahan or Jeff Fisher or Pete Carroll talk about “coaching”. Then hopefully some day we will have some good old American boys back developing our players in our own style.

Pop Warner,
I take several exceptions to your points in your post:

1) Do you happen to think that the success of American bball and football coaches has to do with the fact that we ummm....invented those sports? And uhhh...there aren't exactly all that many foreign football coaches to compare to. Noone would say that NFL Europe is a comparable environment, just as USA Rugby isn't comparable to the rest of the world rugby teams. Also, apparently USA isn't all that great with coaching, seeing as how we've been beaten by Argentina, Spain and Greece I believe at the world championships last year, and at the previous Olympics.

2) Pete Carroll was a terrible pro coach, and should never be used as a coaching role model seeing as how he can only deal with college players.

3) We do need help from the best coaches in the world in order to improve and develop our own. If that means "funny talkers" then so be it. Would bball teams in Europe say no to Phil Jackson because he is a 'funny talker'. The blanket xenophobia is just stupid. "We need an AMERICAN coach to show us what to do right! YEA! GO AMERICA!" just shows how short sighted and foolish many of our 'coaches' are. We should learn from the best, regardless of where they're from, their accent, their look....all that matters is winning - and clearly the rest of the world does that better than us.

Coaching is coaching is coaching. I'm all for having our Eagles play an American style of rugby(whatever that means), but coaching tactics and preparation are bridges over any nationality, and individual team's nuances. To say we need American coaches working in an "American style" is foolish - clearly it hasnt helped our developmental teams.

Mr. Bubble,
My main point; we come from a heritage of coaching, “the discipline” doesn’t matter; in time a trained chimpanzee can learn the “curriculum” but can they design, articulate and implement a plan. This is our strength. Using the current Eagles coaches as an example; I’m sure Johnno and his crew have no problem explaining rugby to Australian guys, but can they articulate it to American guys? Can they articulate the concepts in familiar terminology offering specific detailed instruction? I say not, Thorbs couldn’t, Billups could, Hall couldn’t, Clark could, etc, etc.
Of course American coaches should glean whatever they can from the world abroad about the sport of rugby; they should ALSO rely on our own resources, that being over a century of leadership in the field of coaching and professionalism. The very heart of the matter is that the primary focus when coaching our American sports at any level is being an effective communicator and being a leader.
I truly believe all things being equal, there is more to be gained by watching an American high school football or basketball practice then attending a USA Rugby Coaching Clinic featuring Graham Henry.

Will you two pipe down so we can get back to the fact we've wasted millions of dollars on the Eagles and their coaching admin staff that should have been spent on building a strong domestic rugby union.

As a (former) coach, who has had the pleasure of being around some good athletes (both American and Foreign born), what is noteworthy in comparing the two groups is the grasping of new concepts.

Those with formal conceptual team training were able to discern and assimilate new material in a very short period of time.

What was strange is that many of these top level foreign players had no formal conceptual/tactical training previously. And because they couldn't conceptualize as quickly as the others who had formal training, some would reject it.

It is my belief that an American athlete, with previous formal conceptual and tactical training (American Football/Basketball) can learn some fairly advanced stuff far quicker than they can learn basic skills.

I find foreign coaching methods to be rather nebulous and disjointed. They coach tactical decision making individualistically without regard to the team concept.

Many top rugby coaches and administrators in the world have been trying to mimic our professional structure. What I don't get is why we are contracting those who are trying to mimic what some of us already knew?

I know that was off topic, but I was trying to draw comparison to how USA Rugby appears to be currently handling their business. They have command of the nuances, but could probably learn a few things tactical design and conceptualizing within a structure.

Pop Warner should just write as Ray Lehner and be open about it.

Ray your current thoughts are just a rehash of your "foreigners are just cone carying Chimpanzees speel."
Please tell us again about the "American invented Craft of Coaching".
Todays xenophobic rant is just more of the same that you at least signed your name to in 2007.
Try and break down some tape of losing the 2007 Div 1 semi finals in San Diego. I'm sure you'll analyse the tape and draw up a highly detailed drill that gets the other half of the Olympic club starters out of street clothes on the sideline and onto the field.

LOL. that last post was funny...Lehner is poop warner.

I don't think there was a claim that the observing coaches at the SD camp were elite. I think that the coaches from NZ were. Byrne and Cron are experts in their field. Ellis is an entertainer and he is selling the IRANZ academy, as he was doing there. His content on techniques of moving the ball were sound. I agree that the drills lacked a lot of practical application, but there was some entertainment to that and schtick, but I thought they knew that going in.

The fact was, when it rained, most coaches just stayed under the cover and didn't watch training (about 90%).

I thought SD was good, it was not perfect and a lot of people were invited, but those people had no bearing on the content of Cron and Byrne. They were there to teach basics of things they were expert in and they did that.

I guess there are far bigger issues than some camp several years ago, so I wasted my time writing this and if you got this far reading it, I am sorry for wasting your time

Well what a pleasant surprise for a Friday morning. When I have entered this ‘arena’ I have been unequivocal about urging people to post with their real name. I am flattered that my comments from two years ago had such a profound impact.
Ray Lehner

Ray, Pop, Poop Warner Lehner you got caught out. What an ass. You're the chimpanzee, whatever you call yourself.

For your viewing pleasure, France's L'Equipe magazine has an article on Army's rugby program - calling it "West Point Rugby Academy".
Indeed, if ever there was a rugby academy, it's on the banks of the Hudson

http://www.lequipemagazine.fr/EquipeMag/Mag/west-point-rugby-academie-20081204_125626.html

http://www.lequipemagazine.fr/EquipeMag/Mag/flip/index_flip.html

Its okay Ray, I mean poop head. Maybe you, Billups, and Clark can craft some shit over the holidays...Afterall, "American invented the Craft of Coaching"

Hey LOL, What gives, whatever about Lehner or pop warner...what is your point? I could give a sh.t about Cal or Olympic club, etc - what I care about is the business of USA Rugby, our lack of a plan and our inability to drive revenue or commerce as this post is about.

Your personal feelings toward or reaction to Lehner are a major distraction, and if this is about your opinion over his, bring about your body of work for everyone to judge?!

Lehner is going to get some criticism because he puts it out there, coaches, debates, etc has a past with the US team, Oxford, etc. Before you bash again, bring out one thing that puts you even close to one of his accomplishments!!

Go ahead, bring some thing back about him, or Cal or something else that distracts from the topic of we have the American know how, the humility to learn from abroad, but we have chosen the later and those from abroad have not chosen the same humble path!

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