Six 2007 quarterfinalists repeat in 2008

Six of 2007's quarterfinalists have returned to this year's round of eight: Cal, Cal Poly, St. Mary's, Penn State, San Diego State, and BYU.

The day's closest result, Colorado's 31-30 win over Utah, kept the number of repeat quarterfinalists from reaching seven.

Four of the six are from California, but the Mustangs (v Cal) and Aztecs (v BYU) will be underdogs tomorrow. With Saturday wins, the Bears, Nittany Lions, and Cougars could all reach their third consecutive semifinals.

Further to Friday's (today's) apparently widespread difficulties reaching USA Rugby's site and specifically the webcasting, if it's slow again, try this link:
        mms://tampadig-usarugby.wm.llnwd.net/tampadig_usarugby

Regarding questions on whether Balloon Park is a reclaimed landfill, it appears the answer is yes: 'Other major landmarks in the park are the reclaimed Los Angeles Landfill and the Nazareth Landfill.'

Separately, might Scott Johnson decline the Eagles post after all? It seems unthinkable, but his name has come up as a candidate to replace Ewen McKenzie as coach of the 2009 New South Wales Waratahs. As I have much respect for Greg Growden of the Sydney Morning Herald, here it is in full:

Former Waratahs assistant coach Scott Johnson has considerable support. Johnson also recently agreed on another position, taking over as the United States coach. But a Waratahs source believes there may be a get-out clause with the US contract, which would improve Johnson's chances of returning to NSW, where he was assistant coach to Bob Dwyer in 2001.

Yikes! Johnson and family have been working through visa matters. I've queried Boulder on the report.

Update: I'm reliably told by a USA Rugby official that there is 'no such clause' and that Johnson 'starts work when his visa application is approved.' Hopes are that the coach will meet the  Eagle pool players at a squad session early next month.

Related: More webcasting please

Comments

[Mike Tafel]

Anyone have any scores from this morning so far? I am interested in the Univ. Northern Colorado -- Middlebury game. Thanks in advance.

[P. Kane]

Only men's score I have is Utah Valley 13 East Carolina 11.

[M.O.]

Middlebury 34
Univ-North. Colorado 12

[aa]

Any other scores from the Men's rugby?

[CRF]

All the D2 scores are on USA Rugby's live scoreboard.

The only other one I heard was Arkansas State 44 Dartmouth 17

Anyone have a reliable answer as to the average age of the BYU players? It has to be close to 25.

[Andy R]

In my opinion, no player should be allowed to play collegiate rugby past their 24th birthday.

[Rugby Fan]

Isn't it funny that this age issue and BYU always comes up at this time of year. Ridiculous.

Cal has one of the oldest players in college rugby on their team in Adam Casias at 25 and he started this weekend in one of the Bears' games.

Utah is on average the same age or older than BYU and how did they fair?

Maybe we should just say that all players over 240 pounds and taller than 6 foot 4 inches shouldn't be able to play because they're too big.

And all players from rugby playing nations shouldn't play because they're too experienced. What would teams like Kutztown and Arkansas State do without these guys?

And why we're at it why don't we just stop and not let anyone with slightly pigmented skin not be able to step on the field because they might be too aggressive or too athletic.

This age issue is a smokescreen. Always has and always will be. Cal is the class of collegiate rugby. BYU is knocking on the door somewhat and people just want to tear them down. I don't get it. Usually people cheer for the underdog, but after three consecutive years of semifinal appearances for BYU people are still crying about their age and trying to tear them down. Plus, BYU has never beaten Cal...maybe age isn't as big a factor as what people think.

Colorado beat BYU this year and they never from what I heard had anything to say about BYU's age.

Am I overreacting? Maybe. But give it a rest people.

[Chuck Norris]

Chuck Norris says - hey Andy R., how bout a big steaming mug of shut the hell up.

Chuck, along with several of his teamates, played college rugby after serving a few years in uniform.

Yes, we were over 24 by the time we graduated, and played all 4 years.

Paradigm shift?

Yer welcome!

[CRF]

Perhaps the reason it gets brought up at this time of year (and the reason that I posed the above question) is that rugby fans who don't usually get to see BYU play, get an opportunity to see them on these webcasts and are struck by how old the team looks. I wasn't complaining, I was just asking a question. No different than "How many Cal players played at Jesuit?" or "How tall are those BYU locks?"

[one set of rules]

Many teams have the odd player over 22, some for military service. BYU has an entire team of 24,25,26+ year old players. It is an unfair advantage over the teams they beat. Dartmonth and San Diego State are college age teams. Add to this, the cheap shots, no wrap tackles, they got away with against SD State and no one has any love for them. Those cheap shot players should be video sited.

[Andy R]

It is my opinion, and has nothing to do with BYU, Cal or any college side. I simply believe that no player should be allowed to play collegiate rugby past their 24th birthday, it is as simple as that. A hard and fast rule that everyone has to abide by. Collegiate rugby should be a game played by players of the same age.

We have a safety issue that needs addressing in this country that is not prevalent anywhere else. When you have a 24+ year old prop (possibly ex-serviceman) coming against an 18-19 year old with little more experience than 2 years, then we have a mis-match that might be a disaster in the making.

Sure, we do all we can to train and coach our players, but with the lack of facilities, players and resources that most sides have, there is the kind of contest you rarely see in other rugby playing countries.

Joe Roff played for Oxford in the Varsity Match at age 30? But in that match he was playing against students (mostly)who had been playing rugby since they very young; this isn't the case here.

[Rugby Fan]

One Set of Rules:

"BYU has an entire team of 24,25,26+ year old players."

Where do you get your numbers? This is the type of erroneous statements that lead to prejudice.

I had the opportunity to do what you didn't and contact a coach at BYU (their contacts are on their website should you need more info) and he suggested I chat with their PR guy. The PR guy was nice enough to give me the facts that would so easily elude someone like yourself. It was obvious that they're sick of being thrown under the age bus every time the semis roll around after all the hard work their players put in.

After adding up their ages that he gave me for their starting 15 against SDSU, BYU's average age was 22.5. Plus, they had an 18 year old starting at flyhalf and he was lighting SDSU up from what I saw. If you were to average the rest of the teams in the final four I would assume that their average age conservatively would be around 21...and probably not much less than BYU's 22.5. Many of the teams, excluding BYU for this statement, have 23+ years olds doing a 5 full years of elligbility allowed by USA Rugby. That's not including the military deferred servicemen who should be given the right to play based on their service for you and I. Is an extra 18 months that big of a difference then? Get over it man! As for the cheap shots and such, I saw agression and one big hit by a BYU guy who leveled an SDSU player with a shoulder to shoulder tackle. A lot of niggly stuff, and not purist rugby, but sometimes you have scratch to win...ask the French or argies...I don't condone it, but what can you do when they win the game? Seems like crying over spilled milk to me.

CRF:

"...rugby fans who don't usually get to see BYU play, get an opportunity to see them on these webcasts and are struck by how old the team looks...I was just asking a question. No different than 'How many Cal players played at Jesuit?' or 'How tall are those BYU locks?'"

They say the camera adds ten pounds, but i never heard them adding inches and wrinkles to people...?!?!

The tallest BYU locks are listed at 6'5" while Cal boasts two 6'9" and 6'7" locks respectively. Plus and number of 6'4" flankers/locks. If you were there at the games like I was you would know that Cal is HUGE! BYU is big but not gigantic like Cal. Heck, one of their props is 6'4" in Eric Fry...that's as big as Carl Hayman for NZ who is the best tighthead in the world right now. This begs the question then, were people only watching BYU or Cal? Yet still, is their a blind eye or a double standard being leveled?

[CRF]

Rugby Fan:

Thanks for the stats. The question about the BYU locks was a hypothetical one that I could have put any team name into. The point was showing that I was simply asking a question about the BYU average age, an issue that you are obviously quite defensive about. As I stated, I wasn't complaining, I was just curious. Just like I was curious about how big the Radford #4 was who ran all over Coast Guard or where Chad Clark, the freshman scrumhalf from St. Mary's played high school rugby.

And yes, Cal has some massive players. And some old ones. It is also a huge advantage that they can play two games over the weekend and only a handful of players play both days. Kudos to them for building such an incredible program. And Kudos to BYU for their overseas recruitment as well. Obviously both those teams have found a definite formula for sustained excellence.

[Rugby Fan]

Thanks CRF for your clear understanding and response. I hope I haven't sounded overly aggressive, but for the last four years I've read nothing but the above stereotyping and prejudice regarding BYU's "age issue." It just seems to muddy the water when it comes to looking at solid rugby competition and moving the game forward toward developing it into a mainstream, marketable enterprise.

Looking forward to watching a solid final four in Palo Alto. There's an Irish bar near Stanford...I forget the name...but if anyone sees a large guy in the corner, come grab me and I'll shout a round or two.

[Go CU]

Rugby Fan,

You are a sad fellow with your crap about BYU's average age. Thank goodness for that 18 year old, he will offset the 26 year old islanders on your average age scale. What is this PR about heights and weights and wanting us to all get behind BYU as the underdog, you must be naive to believe we will ever get behind a team of mid 20's thugs. You beat a team of Ivy leaguers, four year students, and a team of college age students from San Diego. The main reason BYU won these matches was the age and nationality of the BYU players. BTW, nice touch on the offer to shout a round, but it didn't throw us off the LDS PR trail. You Mormons have an advantage over every team in the competition, with the 30+ Mormon mission waivers you receive from USA Rugby. Everyone I know will be pulling for CU to beat you chaps again, this time without the excuses about BYU not fielding its best side.

[AA]

Chad Clark played up in Washington. Google him and you get this story:
http://www.bellinghamherald.com/sports/story/386687.html

Just like you can Google the players from BYU to see which club they played for in Fiji.

[Rugby Fan]

Go CU:

"The main reason BYU won these matches was the age and nationality of the BYU players."

I thought I was done having to comment on this board. But you have to keep on going...then so do I.

If you claim that I'm Mormon (which is a far cry from the truth)...I would like to wonder where your comments are coming from. Seems that you might be located in a small town called San Diego and you lost this weekend. And have a coach named Dan Payne who's feeding you info on the number of waivers BYU might have submitted. Seems there's a confidentiality leak at the offices of USA Rugby...maybe we should contact Nigel and have him look into Mr. Payne's condust after losing to an "older" team.

Listen, all I ever hear every time someone loses to BYU is the age issue. Get over it people! Its been four years in a row now. Maybe the rest of the schools should start recruiting the Mormons so they can have the same age waiver. Just maybe they are a good team...just maybe. I might be a loner on this, but I'm starting to have to think that I might go change my colors to blue and white given the masses lining up to flog these guys for just playing a game after they commit two years of their lives to missionary work.

If you think I'm the PR machine of BYU rugby then so be it...hopefully David Smith can sign me up now to argue their case against fools like you who lose and cry "their too old!" If the BYU guys are too old why have they had just as many national teams members selected as Dartmouth, SDSU and the other quarterfinal teams combined? Why is their coach the All-Americans head coach and boast a 3-2 record. Why, why, why? Probably because they're old coggers. It probably has nothing to do with their talent and coaching.

I would just be careful Go CU claiming wins based on religious affiliation and age. Crossing into that arena starts making things no longer about the game and can be apparently discriminatory and prejudice. Which is what no one in the rugby community wants. We have a hard enough time getting back basic stereotypes that are associated with the game if we don't add religious discrimination. Be very careful in response to my comments because you will flesh out whether you belong on the rugby pitch playing the greatest game in the world or signing up for you local chapter of the KKK.

[P. Kane]

Whether or not a player gets an eligibility waiver is by no means confidential information. Opposing teams have the right, in fact the duty, to check a team's eligibility documents prior to the match- it's part of USA Rugby's new plan of "self-policing." So any team playing BYU could ask to see their registrar form and accompanying waivers and do an ID check prior to the match.

[doug lyons]

Just curious how old is the average BYU football player? Does the NCAA grant similar waivers to footballers?

[Rugby Fan]

Doug,

From what I understand the NCAA does grant waivers for missionary service as well as medical issues and military service. I believe USA Rugby's policy is built around that, but since they allow five years to play and not four a person could inevitably play be 25 by the time they graduate from school as opposed to 23.

The issue isn't age for me it's excuses though. If a losing team's first response to BYU after they play them is "they won because of their age" its a cop out.

On another note: I was just reading the other posts about how ragged the immature the teams were acting while down in Albq. The teams that I noticed that were professional in appearance and repore were Cal (of course), Army, PSU, BYU, Dartmouth and few of the other quarterfinalists. But the rest was rag tag operation. If there's an issues with this type of organizational and player immaturity why issue with age? Maybe we need older players to bring some sense and maturity to the game that has a national stereotype of players that are constantly in a state of a drunken spring break repose. Just a thought that I'm sure you're all going to slam.

P. Kane,

I'm not saying that the information is confidential, just that the timing and context of such a comment is odd. It would not surprise me that people within SDSU's team are being fed "BYU's old" propoganda given their relationship with Dan Payne. I could be wrong and I hope I am, but it would appear their a conflict of interest there possibly.

[not afraid]

Rugby Fan: take your discriminatory charges and haul ass. 47 college teams take an extra day off classes for BYU, which won't play on both days of the weekend, and we can't use the Mormon word without claims of religious discrimination and threats to "be careful"?

Take the 30+ USA Rugby waivers, for additional eligibility, off your team and BYU wouldn't be in the top 50 teams.

[Nick]

"not afraid",

Considering how complicated it is to get teams from all over the country into one location, the Friday-Saturday-Sunday split is needed. That way you can play Friday afternoon, all day Saturday, and Sunday morning, and allow people the chance to travel.

Now before someone jumps in with "well that's because ABQ sucks for travel", the same issue would present itself wherever it was located, a tournament like this can realistically have teams from all 4 corners of the country, someone is going to have a long trip.

[cu over byu]

not true Nick, the only reason usa rugby has the d1 mens teams take an extra day off school and play on friday-saturday, is byu's claim that to not do so is prejudice against their faith. utah has many mormon players and they play on sunday. so do the byu pro football players for that matter.

also, why does the byu fellow want the waivers for extra competition time to be confidential? above he raises the issue of a usa rugby "leak" in releasing this information. if the age of the byu players is so young "on average", why does he not want us to see the waiver info. this is the same byu guy that informs us about a cal player on a waiver.

with apparently 30 byu players on waivers, like P Kane states, isn't this waiver biz something that CU and others should be able to see? we should be able to see every waiver that has been granted, for every team.

[BYURUGBY ROCKS!]

Kicked up a bit of a hornets nest haven't we.

I'm a BYU rugby alum and I have to apologize for BYU and our team.

I'm sorry that you have travel a day earlier to playoffs because of BYU. If you had played on SAT-SUN you could have left on Friday instead of Thursday. But a flight out of albuquerque isn't possible in time on SUN so you would have had to travel on Monday...missing another day of school.

I'm sorry that such accomodations make it possible that all players of this great game get the chance to play. Isn't that what its about: playing rugby? Why are you crying about age? It should be about rugby not this weak excuse for why a team lost.

As for the Rugby Fan's comments, I don't if he's a BYU alum or not masquerading as someone he's not, but regardless I see reason to a lot of his points. I don't think he's saying that the waivers should be secret...in fact I know they aren't. But the fact is why does this CU over BYU have it out for BYU and seem so upset about the age discrepency unless he's being fed information or propoganda? Where are you from CU OVER BYU? Be honest are you that SDSU player that got smashed by the BYU player? Does your head hurt still? The point of the leak is that it propels a bias and prejudice that is already apparent against BYU. I felt it playing at BYU and I know its real. People don't like that we don't drink and that BYU doesn't allow its team sports to play on Sunday. Once beyond BYU individuals can do what ever they feel is appropriate.

Anyways, its clear that my comments and other comments above are not going to finalize any of this. They're only going to promulgate the dialogue. But let me just ask, why can't it just be about rugby? Why the excuses? Why the bias? Why can't people simply see that BYU is a solid program and deserving os some amount of credit?

[Jeff]

generally speaking, do collegiate coaches who are recruiting mormon athletes (or have them on their team) tend to see 2 year missionary service as a liability or an advantage?

[CRF]

I actually don't think the advantage comes from the waivers for missionary service. I'm not sure that 18 year olds who enter BYU and then take two years off to go on a mission come back as 22 year olds and dominate. The advantage comes from recruiting Pacific Islanders to come to the US and attend BYU at age 22, and playing until they are 26 or 27. There's no waiver necessary for that, as long as they didn't begin school until they got to BYU. They are already at an advantage having grown up immersed in rugby, they are at an even bigger advantage in that they are 26 years old. I have no idea if this is actually how it works at BYU or not, so if anyone in the know wants to correct me, please do so.

And yes, I realize that other schools bring in kids from overseas who have grown up playing rugby. And there's no argument that these kids have an advantage over their peers who don't begin playing rugby until high school or college. But at least they are the same age as these peers. Imagine Marco Barnad from Kutztown or Roland Evans from Ark. St. as a 26 year old? How good would they be then? That's where I see the advantage that BYU has. (Disclaimer: I have no clue how old Roland or Marco is- maybe they are both older than the average college student, but I don't believe that to be the case) Is it unfair? Maybe, maybe not. Is it a touchy subject because of the religious undertones? Sure. But please don't tell me that having a 26 year old who has played rugby his whole life on your team is not an advantage.

If you recall, there was similar controversy back in 2000 when Chris Weinke, the 27 year old Florida State QB won the Heisman Trophy. Many people said he had an advantage because of his age.

This is not to take anything away from BYU and what they've accomplished. They are without a doubt one of the best collegiate rugby programs in the country. But I don't buy the argument that BYU doesn't have an advantage because of the players they are able to get. It's not a whole lot different from saying that a team has an advantage because it is a varsity team or gets a ton of money from the school, etc. An advantage is an advantage, simple as that.

[FrankRM]

The only college team entitled to the BYU "advantage" is BYU. No other team legally gets a roster full of older players.

[BYURUGBY ROCKS]

Ask Jack Clark. He said to two LDS players he had to never come back if they left on their missions. Needless to say both never returned to Cal and had standout careers at BYU. I played with one in the '90's and know the other was on one of BYU's recent teams in the finals two years ago.

It turns out, from my own experience, that its very hard to come back into physical form after two years of not doing anything athletic. it takes time--sometimes years to get back into shape. For me, I'm a big guy and I was never in shape after my mission like I was before. Its not as much an advantage as people make it out to be.

[BYU Player]

There isn't a single 26 year old on our roster.

[Rugby Fan]

FrankRM:

The only other team allowed to have the BYU advantage is Utah (which is chalk full of mormons), UVSC (which is full polynesians and mormons from what I understand), Navy, Army, US Coast Guard, Cal, PSU, Cal Poly...in fact every team that has a person serve religious missionary work or serve in the military is eligible. Read your USA Rugby Laws and stop your bigotry.

Where's my BYU jersey coach?...suit me up for you guys! I'm sick of the stupidity these people show.

[Rugby Fan]

FrankRM:

The only other team allowed to have the BYU advantage is Utah (which is chalk full of mormons), UVSC (which is full polynesians and mormons from what I understand), Navy, Army, US Coast Guard, Cal, PSU, Cal Poly...in fact every team that has a person serve religious missionary work or serve in the military is eligible. Read your USA Rugby Laws and stop your bigotry.

Where's my BYU jersey coach?...suit me up for you guys! I'm sick of the stupidity these people show.

[Rugby Fan]

CRF:

Now you're actually starting to make sense. There might be an advantage...I don't what BYURUGBY ROCKS might be alluding to in terms of the physical state of a body after two years of riding a back...but what ever, it can still be interpretted as an advantage in some eyes. But as you state that its an apparent advantage similar to varsity status, funding, etc. then why do people cry about it. Do people cry when they get beat by Cal? By the military academies (despite it being a down year for them)? No, because they know that they're excuses to say we lost because Cal is oldest rugby program in the US and has a top full time coach and oodles of money. They know they got beat by a good rugby team and respect that. Should we limit the number of good players Cal can have because they've been smart enough to corner the market on college rugby thus far? That's ludicrous of course. So if BYU has an apparent advantage because you feel a rugby player is better at 23 or 24 than 21 or 22 I think it's in your heads more than anything. Its a weak attempt by someone who doesn't know the game enough to know why they got beat. Its a smokescreen and an excuse for why their program isn't as good as BYU's. Step up and own who your performance and realize that playing older people isn't the reason you lost...its because you're not good enough to beat those older players yourself, true advantage or not.

[Rag Tag]

Rugby Fan wrote:

"On another note: I was just reading the other posts about how ragged the immature the teams were acting while down in Albq. The teams that I noticed that were professional in appearance and repore were Cal (of course), Army, PSU, BYU, Dartmouth and few of the other quarterfinalists. But the rest was rag tag operation. If there's an issues with this type of organizational and player immaturity why issue with age? Maybe we need older players to bring some sense and maturity to the game that has a national stereotype of players that are constantly in a state of a drunken spring break repose. Just a thought that I'm sure you're all going to slam."

***

You're damn right I'm going to slam that notion. "Rag tag operations." Tennessee has beaten three of the five clubs you just named (Army, Dartmouth, and Penn State) in the Nationals ('08, '05, and '04, respectively).

Tennessee has won a match at the National Tournament five years in a row (2004-2008). There are only three teams that can say that - Cal, BYU, and Tennessee.

On a bigger note, don't throw your "rag tag" label BS around. All of the D1 teams that make it to the National Tournament are teams that take their rugby very seriously. The players and coaches of these teams sacrifice a lot to get to this level.

You are dreaming if you think any of these D1 teams that make the Nationals are "constantly in a state of a drunken spring break repose." Teams that fall under that heading were all at home this past weekend.

We do not need 25 year olds in order to make the college game look better. If anything, that makes it look worse. How many 25+ year olds can be found on NCAA football teams?

[Rugby Fan]

Rag Tag:

You're right. I should withdraw my unilateral statement. My apologies to Tennessee and other teams that might fall under my wholistic statement. It was inappropriate and untrue on a whole.

But the stigma of drunk rugby players, etc. remains and its up to all of the teams in college rugby to work on rectifying that issue.

[Rag Tag]

Rugby Fan,

Thanks for rethinking that blanket statement. You are right that the drunken rugby player stigma remains. However, it takes many years for a stigma to die even after the cause of the stigma is gone. I truly believe that more and more teams are beginning to put rugby first and the social aspect second. Of course there are still clubs out there that would rather win a boat race at the social than the actual rugby match, but I think they are becoming fewer and fewer.

The only thing that top notch, professional organizations can do to bring some of these social minded clubs out of the dark is to set an example. At some point, leadership at the administrative level, either through coaches and/or commited players, is what is needed to get them to focus on playing good rugby.

High school rugby in TN is what caused the paradigm change at the Univ. of Tennessee. High school rugby is all about the sport itself, and when these players filter into the college level, they expect the rugby club to be mainly about rugby, not partying. As youth rugby expands I think we will see tons of benefits, including a rising number of college clubs that shift over from social organizations to solid rugby clubs.

[Nick]

I like this idea of these players becoming so much better at 26 than at 20-21.

I'm an England fan, so I'm looking forward to the continued upward performance curve of Danny Cipriani and his young colleagues.