Applications for USA Rugby's collegiate equipment program closed this week, and some teams could receive their National Guard-branded gear as soon as February 15.
'At this point the National Guard and [USA Rugby] are willing to kit out every team that has applied,' Court Jeske, director of marketing services, said in an email.
'We have a 5-week turnaround time from "orders-in" until the packages are delivered. Almost every team should receive their kit between Feb 15-March 1, if they complete the application properly,' he added.
As part of a multifaceted agreement, the National Guard is underwriting the cost of uniforms and training and match equipment for hundreds of collegiate teams. The November announcement marked the union's highest-profile commercial agreement since the 2005 sale of the USA 7s.
Separately, the Eagles have drawn South Africa, England, and Mexico in pool play at the USA 7s next month in San Diego.
How can this be so far along with so little information released? Who is the kit manufacture? How many jerseys, shorts and socks per 'team kit'? What are these agreements that the teams need to sign to get these kits? Do the teams signs these contracts or does the university decision makers need to sign them? Are these agreements with the university or a player on the rugby team elected president? The rugby club is not a legal company, is it? Are the agreements with the NG or with USA Rugby? Can somebody who has one of these contracts post it?
Posted by: Phil | 10 January 2008 at 06:49
As the coach of a team that has applied for the kit on the first day applications were made available, I can say that we have received no information about anything related to this.
Posted by: Patrick Kane | 10 January 2008 at 07:16
Information can be found at usarugby.org
Posted by: JH | 10 January 2008 at 10:29
JH, the information at USAR.org doesn't answer any of the questions raised. It is the same old press release with no real information.
Posted by: cw | 10 January 2008 at 13:25
I wouldn't hold your breath for those kits Patrick. Small private colleges like Wake Forest are not going to get any attention from the National Guard. They need a presence on schools with large admissions and a demographic of students that would consider military service.
Posted by: Kat | 10 January 2008 at 18:27
The list of which colleges that have applied is available. There are only a few of the top teams applying. A lot of womens teams and a lot of mens teams in the lower end of the competition. Out of the top 25 mens teams only a few are interested. I think this means that everybody who applies will likely get kit. The top teams don't appear that interested. I wonder if they are getting their own deal from the NG.
What do you do with your current kit? USA Rugby informed us that we won't be allowed to wear it. What we don't know yet is the quantity of the new kit. Our decision is do we make a couple thousand bucks worth of current kit obsolete for a few hundred buck worth of new kit. We already have goal post pads that we bought.
What is with this contract? What does it require of us?
Posted by: flankermobile | 11 January 2008 at 06:34
your all looking a gift horse in the mouth
Posted by: geraint.hill@roberthalf.co.uk | 11 January 2008 at 06:56
guys just apply for this stuff and use it for training if you want. what is the ng and usar going to do, bring a lawsuit against your team. its free take it. sign whatever they want you to sign. we might sell our stuff to our players to make some money. the way we look at it, we pay dues for about 25 guys and get squat. this is our payback.
Posted by: wood | 11 January 2008 at 06:57
Wood, that's an interesting plan... Until you show up at a national event and are declared not in good standing because of breech of contract with USAR. Not to mention that it just isn’t fair to the sponsor, of whom I have much respect for.
I applied for a kit and, if chosen, will examine the agreement closely before accepting delivery. I hope it works out.
Posted by: M. Bradley | 11 January 2008 at 07:42
Kat-
I'm certainly not holding my breath, just stating that we had applied and hadn't heard anything from USAR on the issue. Although according to Court's quote above, it appears that everyone who applied is going to get the kit. If we get it, great, and like Mr. Bradley, I'll be examining the contract carefully. We already have everything they are offering, but getting a bunch more stuff for free wouldn't be a bad thing...
Posted by: Patrick Kane | 11 January 2008 at 08:12
We already have a jersey sponsor who pays us pretty good money for their name on our jersey. Does anyone know if we can keep this sponsor and still get NG uniforms? This would be mean having both NG and our sponsor on our jersey's.
Posted by: edward | 11 January 2008 at 14:23
Where is the list of clubs that want to get the promotional kits from the National Guard?
Posted by: Kat | 11 January 2008 at 21:12
There is a email making the rounds from 'Court', a USA Rugby employee that was sent to TU and LAU president that has the list of teams that have applied.
The email also says "to receive the NG kit, you will be requested to sign our terms agreement".
It's not only the employees in Boulder that can't communicate it also appears that the TU, LAU presidents can't get the word out.
Posted by: CW | 12 January 2008 at 09:59
There is a email making the rounds from 'Court', a USA Rugby employee that was sent to TU and LAU president that has the list of teams that have applied.
The email also says "to receive the NG kit, you will be requested to sign our terms agreement".
It's not only the employees in Boulder that can't communicate it also appears that the TU, LAU presidents can't get the word out.
Posted by: CW | 12 January 2008 at 10:00
I was told about this site from a former Eagle and now a college coach. Listen up! The partnership was initiated by a former collegiate , club, and military player currently serving in the National Guard. USA Rugby worked a fantastic deal for college rugby. The concept was to provide the college programs that are developing or wanting assistance to have a "sponsored kit" and a professional look to the program. This means each program that applied could free up funds for other needs, encourage other sponsors to come on board. 25 KooGa uniform kits, 12 color choices, National Guard logo, on center chest, put other sponsors on as you wish/need. Goal post pads, corner flags all branded, tackle pads, etc branded, balls branded. The agreement is simple, set your fields up with provided equipment, wear the gear, use it, enjoy! You guys are all creative...teams like Humboldt State, Wake Forest, WILL GET KIT! Any player who happens to join the guard will get a massive tuition break due to the GI Bill and state tuition assistance program. Be it a player from Wake Forest or BYU. Big, small, not the issue. Established programs like Cal, Penn St, etc are set and may not need or want the kits, their choice, THEY ARE NOT GETTING A SIDE DEAL. The big programs may not be the big programs in the years to come. The program is a pilot program meaning it was approved at the very end of the Fiscal Year (Oct 1 2007) and a flawless release plan, getting the info out is compressed, another nice word for not perfect. However, if the college teams runs with this, there will be more to follow. Lastly, the agreement is on the honor system, a memorandum of agreement (so all you jail house attourneys can relax)....no sinister plot, no sneaking around, no hidden one way ticket to Iraq. The National Guard is in 54 states and territories, there are 45 states who have had colleges sign up, 2 territories. I can't think of any company that would take on such a massive support of college rugby in the US. I hope this gives you all a better understanding of what is happening now and where it can go in the future. This is an opportunity for college rugby to take a step forward. Good luck this spring!
Posted by: Smile | 12 January 2008 at 16:25
I was told from an insider at the National Guard that the collegiate national championships are at the balloon park in ABQ. USA Rugby complied even though the fields are poor, the event will be a festival and not a stadium atmosphere, but the NG gets to maximize the event from a marketing perspective. A sole request from USA Rugby for funding to cover travel was refused by the NG, and it was a major talking (laughing) point after the meeting. Never had they experienced a governing body not push for travel funds was the source of laughter.
Posted by: Frown | 12 January 2008 at 22:34
Smile--
Don't you think it odd that some guy under the name 'Smile' is attempting to explain the agreement struck on behave of the membership on a public comment board, while USA Rugby can't get their foot out of their own ass long enough to provide the membership they work for a brief.
Easy, with the 'we should just be grateful' bullshit. We should be pissed off that USA Rugby sold the title sponsorship rights to college rugby for $1.5m and in return is providing the teams 25 rugby jerseys, the color and style of Kooga's choice, except of course for that NG branding. That USA Rugby is keeping the sponsorship money for staff and the Eagles while screwing college rugby AGAIN. Smile, why don't you tell the gainline readers that USA Rugby is trying to get away from Kooga as a sponsor for the Eagle and that this college jersey deal is all part of the payoff.
You want us to believe you just wondered on to this site, while at the same time appearing in the know enough to tell us that there are no side deals for the top 10-15 universities that didn't sign up for the 25 free jersey "we own you plan". Well sorry Mr Guard we are a tad brighter than that. I was assuming that USA Rugby had just screwed the NG into believing this deal would work. Another comment from the NG like this and the picture gets clear that the NG is pulling the strings and USA Rugby is just gutless in representing the colleges.
So here it is Smile, you "Listen Up", take your carpet bagging sponsor who is bullying the teams into festival rugby and the greedy union that keeps the money they raised on the work of the college members and go screw club rugby for awhile. Can't you guys go HELP the super league. College rugby needs a break from all you guys.
Posted by: kr | 13 January 2008 at 08:38
At team prices the list of receivables is about $1000-$1200. The rules say you need uniforms and goalpost pads so teams currently already have this kit and equipment. The colleges are playing matches as we speak wearing something. The question becomes do you give-up, sell, title sponsorship of your team for this price or value?
The non-kooga kit manufactures may just give teams a like deal not to lose their business. There might also be a company, or for that matter several companies, in the area that would jump at a low priced sponsorship. I mean who knew that team title sponsorship could be had so cheaply.
We should keep an open mind, this NG kit might be a good deal. On the other hand, $1200 of kit that you already have is nothing to sell your soul for. What team wants to wear the exact same Kooga designs as all the other teams? Our team will for some serious money, but not for what's on the table. However, we did apply. We are still waiting for some facts about these agreements and the when and what of receiveing the kit from USAR.
Posted by: Sam T | 13 January 2008 at 09:30
Sam,
I don't know where you got the $1000-1200 number from, but it's wrong. Team prices for the jerseys-shorts-socks alone are $2125.
(for clear kit options look here :http://www.teamkooga.com/nagute.html)
Goal post pads are another $250 each. Start adding on all the other items and the final "Team Price" is well over $4000 per team.
Is it a good deal? I'm not sure , but lets try to make decisions with actual facts, and not the "Tackle bags, for body bags" mentality.
Posted by: oregonbobby | 14 January 2008 at 10:15
If you look on the link above, the value for everything will be around $4-5K per team, no small laughing matter given how some college teams struggle to even get players to pay dues. I know this will take alot of the financial burden off of me and my team. Also, clearly some of you guys are very misinformed. You can customize the colors of the jersey so that you are getting to keep your clubs colors, and all the gear is Kooga, a top notch brand. I know my club applied within the first week it was available, and we are not a top program, or a huge state university with unlimited funding.
Why all the bitching and moaning? Finally UARFU is giving back to college rugby teams...and this is somehow a bad thing?? For once I feel like I'm getting bang for my bucks.
Posted by: whsballin | 14 January 2008 at 12:04
Thanks 'Oregonbobby' and don't bring up that body bags BS, our gripe is pure biz.
I believe you are confusing retail prices and team prices. If your team is paying over two grand for 25 kits you are paying too much. You should shop around some.
But lets meet half way on a price. Is $2000 or even $4000 enough to sell title sponsorship of your team? 40-50 or more students all with moms and dads with jobs at companies that might consider title sponsorship of a university sports team. Hundreds of alumni who also might have an interest.
I worry that we have been beggars for so long that we have lost our perspective. This is an opportunity to think about what your team is worth. Seven figures is out of the question, but is $25k-50k, 10 times whats on offer, out of the question ? Don't think so.
I have nothing against the NG and welcome their involvement in our sport. However, USA Rugby sold title sponsorship of our teams cheap and kept the lion share of the sponsorship fee.
We just don't have faith in USA Rugby getting involved in the outfitting of our team, they are bad at most things they take on. The company store also comes to mind. The military sucks at even outfitting our brave soldiers. Kooga has a rough record of service. A record I can't see improving now that the product is free to us. This is before they tell us what the design will be. Because after all it's free.
Posted by: SamT | 14 January 2008 at 12:23
Where are the details about this sponsorship? I am worried that all these colleges are going to be competing at the Balloon Park because of the NG sponsorship, which makes it an unattractive sponsorship deal for the colleges. If USA Rugby received money for it, than I guess it is good. However the college teams in the competition still have to pay their way to the tournament, and I have been at the Balloon Park and the soccer fields there are not in good condition. They never have any competitions at those soccer fields except for local AYSO tournaments for kids under 12. High School, college and adult tournaments are held at Lovelace Soccer Complex which has dedicated soccer fields. Balloon Park is used heavily and for all kinds of events.
Just take a look at the satellite views from google maps and you can tell which is the quality soccer complex.
Lovelace
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&q=soccer+complex&near=Albuquerque,+NM&fb=1&cid=35340575,-106573734,10792398282766436238&li=lmd&z=14&t=m
Balloon Park
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&q=soccer+complex&near=Albuquerque,+NM&fb=1&cid=35340575,-106573734,10792398282766436238&li=lmd&z=14&t=m
We didn't even get the best facilities in ABQ!
Posted by: Kat | 14 January 2008 at 12:24
Sorry. Here are the right 2 links:
Lovelace
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&q=soccer+complex&near=Albuquerque,+NM&fb=1&cid=35340575,-106573734,10792398282766436238&li=lmd&z=14&t=m
Balloon Park
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=Albuquerque+International+Balloon+Fiesta&fb=1&cid=0,0,10236775429111992037&near=Albuquerque,+NM&oi=manybox&ct=10&cd=1&resnum=2
Posted by: Kat | 14 January 2008 at 12:33
Sam T,
If you can find a sales guy who can get $25,000-$50,000 for the sponsorship of a collegiate rugby team in the US (not named Cal), I'll eat my tie.
What you're suggesting is that a company would pay that much money for the logo and naming rights to the uniforms only. That is an absurd figure given the visibility and exposure the average collegiate rugby program gets.
Stop whining about this National Guard deal. It's good for rugby in the US, and hopefully a sign of more good things to come from our national offices.
Posted by: Sales | 14 January 2008 at 13:04
The ABQ disaster in the desert just keeps on giving. This just out, although no one from Boulder has told us. The deal is for $1.5m. It was accomplished by a NG member who is also a rugger. USA Rugby provides $300k of kit to the college teams and pockets the rest of the sponsorship cash. The teams that qualify for ABQ get squat. WE WERE SOLD OUT. Now quit crying on get on with the rugby.
Posted by: NEWS JUST OUT | 14 January 2008 at 13:12
Sam you are mixing costs and economic benifits.
The benifit to the college team is the RETAIL cost of what they are recieving, aka how much would it cost to replace the gift.
The fact that the NG gets a significant bulk discount in no way diminishes the economic benifit provided to the college sides.
In short "NG" costs may be $1200 per unit. But the college benifit is still closer to $4k-5k.
Posted by: oregonbobby | 14 January 2008 at 13:22
If the truth is that the NG gave USA Rugby 1.5M, they are going to expect something more than having some college clubs owning a NG kit. I would expect that the NG wants access to the CIPP data and to make sure the college playoffs are a festival event for maximum exposure. Smells like a sell-out of the college clubs by USA Rugby.
Hey oregonbobby,
That "Tackle Bags For Body Bags" line is a hoot! You should be in politics if you can come up with those kind of sound bites.
Posted by: Kat | 14 January 2008 at 13:45
I didn't come up with it. Poster who goes by moniker TJ (and several other names) used it in one of his anti-military rants.
Posted by: oregonbobby | 14 January 2008 at 15:00
Kat,
Think about this for just a moment. All males register with Selective Service at 18. NG has access to this information, they don't need USA Rugby to find 18-23 year old men.
Posted by: Old Beaver | 14 January 2008 at 15:07
So the great value they are getting for 1.5M to USA Rugby is what?
Posted by: Kat | 14 January 2008 at 16:12
Tackle bags for body bags? Is that the answer you want?
The sponsorship does provide greater exposure for the National Guard. Lots and lots of extra exposure.
It's the same reason the Army sponsors the High School All-America football game, brand exposure. They (army) certainly aren't doing it for player addresses.
If the NG paid $1.5 million for the CIPP list, they where the one who got ripped off..
Posted by: Old Beaver | 14 January 2008 at 17:06
Exposure? There is no TV or fans at the college rugby championships. They are having it in giant open field with no stands because of this fact.
Posted by: Kat | 14 January 2008 at 17:15
All marketing money (sponsorship money included) is spent by the National Guard to recruit new people. So the question is what do they get from USA Rugby for 1.5M dollars? If no funds are going to the qualifying clubs to pay for travel and accommodations, and there is no exposure (no TV, no stands at the event, festival environment over stadium, huge park in a small media market over multiple college campus), what are they getting for 1.5M?
I notice from the press release that no terms about the length of the sponsorship were given. Could USA Rugby have signed away the U.S. National College Playoffs and Championships, the Boy’s and Girl’s High School Championships, the National Guard Military Challenge and select Men’s and Women’s Championship events for 5 or 10 years to get their hands on that 1.5M?
This thing was announced almost 2 months ago and we still have no answers other than the college playoffs are going to be in a balloon airstrip with 48 teams competing in the same place for 3 days.
Posted by: TJ | 14 January 2008 at 23:54
Does the NCAA pay for bowl teams to travel?
How about NCAA soccer, swimming, basketball?
Does the NFL foot the bill for its teams to go to a neutral Super Bowl site?
Does the RFO pay for premiership teams to travel to European competitions?
Does the NZRFU pay for super 14 teams to play in SA for a few weeks at a time?
Not sure about the answers to these but I don't know that it should be the governing bodies job to foot the bill for this. I remember fundraising in HS football and I've been to fundraisers for college football and basketball.
Getting teams into matching kit is a massive step forward. It seems small but no media wants to print or broadcast a sport where players from the same team wear 3 different kinds of jerseys, different colored socks and some have mesh basketball shorts. School admins must laugh when a team asks them to come check them out for possible funding. If you have the drive or ability to sell your team brand for more than a few thousand this sponsorship probably wasn't aimed at you. Helping the smaller struggling programs is not a bad thing. What's good for you may not be what's good for the majority.
Around 450 college male teams. how many of those have full matching kit? How many of those have committed coaches or admins? I imagine this is for #'s 100-350.
Until we put an attractive product on the field - quality and aesthetic - we are just spinning our wheels trying to grow and legitimize the sport.
Side note. National level rugby needs to be played at stadiums. Playing at a park is a step backward with so many great venues starting to pop up.
Posted by: Chris | 15 January 2008 at 05:28
New kits for teams is a huge step backwards. If the team exists, it is pretty reasonable to assume they have kits. This is not like it is an inner city initiative sponsorship.
If USA Rugby wants to improve college rugby they should take sponsorship money and do one of two things. Either set-up a legit top flight competition that has the potential to bring in broadcast dollars and more sponsor. Or they should use the money to create two or three year traveling coaching clinic free to college teams. If three times a year college clubs and coaches were exposed to some quality coaching, the level of play would increase greatly.
Posted by: TJ | 15 January 2008 at 10:22
Look at it this way guys - if your team dues before receiving a kit were $75-$100 - which mine currently are, mostly to fund travel, and uniforms - this is like receiving a $5,000 grant for doing nothing but wearing a uniform. To the people who think their club's title sponsorship is worth more, i'd like some of what you are smoking. The reality is, while rugby is a growing sport in the states, it still takes the 7th or even 8th spot behind bball, football, baseball, soccer, lax, hockey, wrestling(in youth). By freeing us of the financial burdens associated with playing rugby, this sponsorship is going to help my team get a scrum machine for the first time - this in turn will help our team improve - as will others teams as they are able to turn their dues money from kit to more important, and hopefully more useful coaching/playing materials. Some of the dues money may even be used to send coaches to coaching clinics, which will in turn help out the teams. Seems like a win-win to me.
In order for USAR to bring in 'top flight' dollars for broadcast rights there needs to be a much larger following that is willing and dedicated to watching rugby - even if that means paying to watch it on setanta. Currently there are about 80k current members(rough guess) which is less than 10% of the audience that watches american idol every time its on...just for some perspective. Rugby isn't going to become a media juggernaut like the NFl overnight - look at the path that soccer had to take to establish itself in the States. It is going to take patience from the players, and smart management by USAR - but i think we are on the right path finally.
Posted by: whsballin | 15 January 2008 at 11:43
In answer to Chris' question, the NCAA and football bowl hosts pay 100% of the participating teams expenses. Many bowls do this through a team pay-out scheme that gives the teams more that they could ever spend in expenses. This is seen as only the right thing to do.
What organization would ask the participates to pay 100% of the expenses cost while selling and keeping the sponsorship profits?
Oh, our organization does. The one that we, as members, are supposed to own.
Posted by: getting screwed bowl | 15 January 2008 at 12:28
When is one of our rugby media hotshots (Goff at erugbynews.com, Lowe at americanrugbynews.com or Hagerty at Rugby Magazine) going to get to the bottom of what the terms of these sponsorships are all about?
If USA Rugby has received 1.5M from the National Guard and then has all the competing teams pay their own way to poor facilities like a balloon airfield, the membership should know and revolt. If the answer is that the money goes to the Eagles, that is unacceptable. Last I saw the Eagles were on TV and playing in IRB feature events like the World Cup and International 7s. Let the Eagles pay their own way by finding some sponsorship dollars on their own merits. Don't do it on the backs of high school & college kids by making them pay to play at an event which sponsors are paying to be associated.
Not until there is a solid rugby media in this country informing the membership of the goings ons in Boulder will USA Rugby stop giving the membership the shaft. The only way the facts are revealed is when someone like Don James blows the whistle on someone like Arnott.
Can the media start small and just let the membership know what the length of term the National Guard sponsorship is? Sure would like to know if my U8 team members are going to be playing their college championship rugby on a balloon airfield in 2020.
Posted by: TJ | 15 January 2008 at 12:47
Get it right, it is collegiate PLAYOFFS in ALBQ. CHAMPIONSHIPS will be held at STANFORD. Get it right before you make your ridiculous accusations.
Posted by: AS | 16 January 2008 at 06:03
Playoffs? PLAYOFFS? You kiddin' me?
Posted by: Jim Mora | 17 January 2008 at 07:08
I will most likely be at the Balloon Airfield for the college playoffs and I predict 2 things:
1) The field condition will be mediocre to poor.
2) The festival atmosphere will be a burden for participating teams (no changing rooms, no pre-match warm-up area, lookie-loos watched over coaches team talks, etc), and spectators (15 or more games going on at the same time?).
I have to wonder about the logic behind this move, and I have come to the conclusion that it is because of money. If the National Guard gave 1.5M and some of those funds were to be spent by USA Rugby to put on the NG sponsored college playoffs, it probable made the most sense to throw everyone in an airfield and save money. Having a proper playoff at a couple colleges with excellent rugby facilities would be more costly.
Posted by: TJ | 17 January 2008 at 10:20
We have had no National brand that has or would step up to the plate and be a title sponsor for Collegiate, U23, U20, and U18 for a 1 year partnership and possibly more in the future. NGB is a title sponsor with NASCAR and has Dale Earnhart Jr as the driver. There is the NG Fishing series, NG Painball, West Coast Choppers Tour, 3 Doors Down Tour, and on and on. Many of these initiatives are soley for Brand Awareness and most important, community support. Rugby falls under community support and brand awareness. It was added in the LAST HOUR of fiscal FY08 as a pilot program (meaning it was for 1 year) and if a positive feedback occurres nationally more funds would be put into the program. My goal is to get the dollars assigned to paintball shifted to Rugby! If you don't want in...don't do it. If you have a problem of being sold out?......at least we were sold! Before that, knowone cared a hoot about college rugby. The insider comment about flying all the teams into the sweet 16 (and the Guard laughing it off) is a flat out untruth, that has never been talked about, but I like the idea of flying them in and that will be discussed. Will some rugby players join the guard? Sure. Will 99.9% of them not, yes. Those of you with passionate comments about being ripped off, etc. I can appreciate your position in light of the minimal information, but as of yesterday there is more information out as to how this pilot program will work. Flash back- I remember driving 6 hours to play and sleeping in my car, no matching kit, always short on cash, gas, and food, every trip was at least a 4 hour drive.- 25 years later the majority of the rugby programs are still operating under those conditions. A rugby fest environment with all 16 teams at one location attracts future corporate support and creates a title event, field conditions, etc not sure of, but lets get bids in for future sweet 16 sites, San Diego Polo fields are incredible. Comparing rugby to the sanctioned, funded NCAA tournaments... we have such a long way to go, but this is a huge start! "Smile" because after 32 years of rugby I still have all my teeth and I can walk! Many of the comments I have read are focused on USA Rugby and the lack of support you guys are getting at the user level, many are valid and need to be addressed. The potential here is immense and a plan to reduce the financial burden on college rugby is a real issue, this equipment is a start. What I hear is a travel incentive for Guard teams qualifying for the sweet 16 and Finals, waiving coaching fees for USA Rugby CDP clinics would justify the NG being a title sponsor, anything else?
Posted by: markdrown | 24 January 2008 at 20:57
We are looking at a super 48 at the balloon field. That sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.
Posted by: FU Rugby | 24 January 2008 at 21:57
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Posted by: Manjoor | 10 July 2008 at 21:27