Puma success warrants another look at amateurism, Argentine director says

World Cup quarterfinalist Argentina is better off as an amateur country, according to English international-turned-Union Argentina de Rugby director of rugby Les Cusworth.

“I have changed my opinion significantly over the last two years,” Cusworth said in an interview with the BBC. “Especially if you look at the problems Welsh and Scottish rugby has gone through.”

“We have a base other countries would die for and our future, while amateur, is a lot brighter than many nations,” Cusworth said.

It’s been assumed that American rugby must launch a professional competition as a precursor to improving internationally. In recent years, no country has climbed the rankings more than fourth-placed Argentina, favored to advance past Scotland this weekend and reach the semifinals for the first time.

Most of the Puma World Cup squad competes professionally in Europe. But before they move abroad, the Argentines develop and refine their skills in an amateur environment, and generally it’s the case that athletes from outside the Commonwealth or European Union have to be better than ‘domestic’ players because of passport restrictions.

(As an aside, many Pumas have college degrees – relatively uncommon among European or Antipodean professionals – and two are even medical doctors.)

Also for the first time, none of the so-called home unions (England, Ireland, Scotland, and Wales) may gain the World Cup semifinals. Cusworth suggests, with an obvious degree of self-serving rhetoric, it’s because these countries have ignored the recreational clubs and competitions where would-be internationals get started. “Lots of amateur clubs have gone because of professionalism. To get an elite, you need a wide base," he said.

In an interview earlier this summer, Belmont Shore coach Jonny Cox suggested Australia’s club model as worthy of America’s review. Australia's professional realm is rather smaller, and its club structure more pronounced, than most of its 'Tier 1' rivals.

Two years ago, former USA Rugby manager Dan Lyle tabled eligibility regulations that would have encouraged America’s senior clubs to resume overall growth, rather than focusing on national championships and the semi-professional requirements of the Super League. The main proposals died in a Board of Directors committee.

Thanks Dave for emailing the story.

Comments

[Goeagles]

Most of the Argentine players do not have passport restrictions as they can get Italian or Spanish citizenship. Anyone who can't just has to work in Spain for a year to get a Spanish passport anyway. So they don't face the same kinds of restrictions most American players do.

[old beaver]

Interesting post....

[dandez8]

It is true that many Argentine players have european ties so that they don't "count" as a foreign player, which allows for many of them to play abroad in Europe.

[Rugby Dad]

National team rugby players with college degrees and a good grounding in the game. Interesting!

[tj]

One big difference between rugby clubs in Argentina and the USA is that they have facilities and quality coaching at all levels and in many sports. Many clubs are like sports academies with field hockey, basketball, rugby, swimming, etc where a kid will play for the U8s all they way through to the club's first 15. These same clubs will produce olympic athletes in sports like field hockey. They also have a social element like a country club where what club you belong to is a representation of who you are, so families will stay affiliated with one club for generations.

Also, the sport of rugby is recognized by the media and the general population as a proper sport. Club semi-finals and finals in Buenos Aires are top sports news stories and broadcast on television live and drawing crowds of 15K or more. Puma matches are big news and just this week the River Plate v Boca Juniors match was pushed back a couple hours to not compete with the Pumas match against Scotland. This would be like having the NBA or MLB reschedule a playoff game to allow sports fans to watch the Eagles.

I think the ambition is there for a professional league, but with the economic crisis happening at the same time as the advent of professionalism in rugby it was impossible.

[Tim]

TJ,

I thought you were describing US college sport, in detailing Argentina domestic rugby: academy setting, long generational connections, media. I think you are coming around.

[tj]

There is a difference. In the USA colleges rugby is an interloper, and at these clubs in Argentina rugby is the backbone of the club. Some rugby clubs are offsprings of a larger sports club set-up so they can focus solely on rugby. USA Collegiate rugby is miles away.

By the way, where is the defense for college rugby on the other post? Facts too much to handle?

[wood]

Doctors playing international rugby ! This was how it happened back in the day. What a great story.

[Cheyanquí]

To add to TJ's already comprehensive summary..
Argentina's rugby traditions are based in the "polideportivo" (multi-sport) clubs. There "Athletic Club" actually means that. So yes, clubs developed sports within a larger governing body.

Argentinean club rugby cannot be confused with US collegiate sports. Collegiate sports offer no cradle-to-grave participation. Go to Argentina, and people of all ages wear the same kit. At the superior level (equiv. to Senior men), clubs will field as many sides as they can. Some clubs even field a Fifth Grade (i.e. "E-side).

All through this, the club culture cannot be minimized. The incomparable Hugo Porta stayed at his home club for years. He turned down offers to play at the super clubs. Instead, he felt a tie to the club that taught him to play as a little boy, the teammates and friends who he's known for 20+ season. Porta's example truly speaks to how people grow up with a club (family, friends, spouses) and that shapes much of their identity.

Then again, he probably didn't have a coach in his ear saying "you MUST-a play 'SuperLiga' to a-make a-the Pumas"

Having lived and played down there, I certainly miss the culture around the rugby. Believe me, US teams could never replicate it, using the municipal parks, and collegiate sports.

[Old Boy]

maybe clubs like NYAC, Olympic Club, OMBAC and a few others have something close to that described by cheyanqui. Ie, a whole infrastructure - both material & sentimental - within which rugby is situated. Just my two cents.

[Chuck Norris]

Chuck Norris says - I TOLD YOU A REF WOULD DECIDE THE OUTCOME OF A VERY IMPORTANT GAME!

Chuck knows rugby.

Barnes had a shocker - France offside at the ruck, all the time, a forward pass for their final try, and McAllister getting a yellow (Barnes' NINTH yellow card of the tourney).

Typical bloody lawyer - a looter, not a producer.

Pommie refs and touch refs are terrible - Steve Walsh for the final, please.

France were lucky.

[Chuck Norris]

Chuck Norris would like to share -

"I remember George Gregan, interviewed moments after the 2003 final, being unbelievably eloquent and gracious in defeat - complimentary to England, proud of Australia ('my boys', he called them), acknowledging the contribution of the fans, and clearly realising (as Michael said about the '87 semi) that he had been part of something special, even if that would take time to sink in ahead of the disappointment of loss.

Rugby is a great game because of the class of men like Gregan, Lynagh and many more. If you watch the video of the 2003 final, when Andre Watson blows for no-side, Ben Kay is standing right next to him - and the first thing Kay says or does, in his team's moment of ultimate triumph, is tap Watson on the shoulder and say 'Thanks, ref.' You thank the ref at the end of an under-11 school match, so you thank him at the end of a World Cup final."

Chuck wants to thank Fiji captain Rauluni, who said at the end of his interview, "We want to see South Africa and Argentina do well for all of us southern hemishphere teams."

I love this game.

[Chuck Norris]

Chuck Norris says - Graham Henry needs a job, how 'bout Kevin Roberts giving him a ring?

[tj]

Old Boy - I agree that there is an important place for the athletic clubs you mention in USA rugby. I don't think that you could recreate what they have in Argentina as some of those clubs are 100 years old and exclusive from a class perspective, which I don't think would serve the USA.

However, when I mentioned that the path forward for high performance players was not fully served by college rugby under the concept of a NCAA system and that it may be more useful to encourage athletic clubs like these (and sole rugby clubs) to nurture U21/U23 development via a national competition (including colleges), people on this board reacted in such a close minded way that I would have to say that the USA rugby community has no vision when it comes to encouraging and developing high performance players and that it is pompous to think college rugby is best and only way to develop high performance players.

[Old Boy]

certainly as you say US clubs dont parallel the Argentine example in terms of heritage. American "rugby culture" is generally post-WWII, a latent effect of the GI Bill. On the other hand, it certainly would do US rugby much good to see the 2 or 3 dozen or so top clubs grow deep roots and stick around for the long haul instead of disappearing without a trace. Wouldn't hurt to see some of them amass huge endowments, too, like the prestigious ACs in NY, LA, SF, elsewhere.

I know - you keep harping on the U21/U23 model. You're no freak for doing so but its a newfangled thing for Americans. I myself am reticent to imposing theory on virgin territory and ignoring what has been done after trial and error. Who know's though? The baseball majors have a parallel feeder system - minor baseball and NCAA - why not elite US rugby? Perhaps someday when the TU's all-star teams become franchises they'll spend the time and money (lots of $$$$) on their U21/U23 units. And recruit from the top 10 American college sides. What matters are results and I'd venture to say that the Cals, BYUs and Penn States of US college rugby do indeed rival the likes of Loughborough, DUFC, and the maybe even the Reichel system (U21) of the French Top 14.

You know, three of the world cup semi-finalists - France, England, Argentina - have been within striking distance of the Eagles in the not-too-distant past. Just some food for thought.

and a lyrical footnote (adapted from E.Thayer's "Casey at the Bat"):
"...The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light./
And, somewhere men are laughing, and little children shout,/
but there is no joy in New Zealand –
the mighty All-Blacks have been knocked out"
;-)

[Rafael Zahralddin]

Funny, not one actual discussion about Dan's proposal. It was two parts, first allow unlimited movement up and down within an RSL club and second, allow all players to choose a "home club" and an RSL club - so eligibility would not be a bar to a player playing up when called.

[tj]

I don't know much about Dan's proposal. Any structure that provides flexibility for athletes to rise to their level is good for the game, but the game's administrators need to set up competitions that challenge the teams and players.

College rugby does not do this, and the main reason is that the national competition is a "college" competition in the model of NCAA sports. So, players are stuck at the school they attend regardless of the quality of the rugby program. Good athletes are introduced to rugby at college X, and if that college doesn't happen to be one of the few colleges with a very good program the athlete doesn't get the proper development until he graduates and goes to a D1 or RSL team. That is stupid.

USA Rugby should provide incentives for top clubs to start a U21/U23 team, and the first step is to regionalize the college championships with no national tourney and create a national U21/U23 tourney where colleges can compete. Funnel some IRB funds into the clubs that want to run quality U21/U23 teams and you will see those clubs using that program to develop players for their RSL team.

A U21 or U23 national competition with a final 16 that had the best college teams and and U21/U23 teams that included players that see RSL time with their clubs, would be a much better challenge for the athletes and established teams (current colleges).

Consider that last years D1 college championships saw a cumulative points for of 643 and points against of 208 during the 15 games to determine the national champion, which is an average per game winning margin of 28.4 points. This is after a qualifying process in the 8 territorial unions, so this isn't a situation where the competition shouldn't be tight - this is the best 16 college teams of a pool of a couple hundred college teams. This is just not a credible competition to develop high performance players.

[Rafael Zahralddin]

Funny, not one actual discussion about Dan's proposal. It was two parts, first allow unlimited movement up and down within an RSL club and second, allow all players to choose a "home club" and an RSL club - so eligibility would not be a bar to a player playing up when called.

[Elmer Gardt]

WIth respect to clubs in Argentina, there is another part that people are forgetting. Some of these clubs are social/status/economic clubs - ie, you belong to a club because it provides you and/or your family "status" or social prominence within the community. The clubs can be very much a "have" versus "have not" affair. The US has tried very hard to be a more egalitarian society.