Hercus in New York Times interview

A buoyant market and a travel day – little time to post. Here are some items I found interesting:

Eagle captain Mike Hercus is portrayed in a New York Times interview (subscription required). Confirming the stereotype, the story presents American rugby as something for upper-class tough guys, and overlooks growth and innovation, such as at the schools level.

Most Americans, myself included, have a vague impression of rugby as squads of 15 beefy brutes, many of them with master's degrees, clanging their heads together until blood streams down their ridged brows, performing unspeakable acts of violence down in the pile. Which turns out to be the case....

'It's as close to war as you can get," Hercus [says]. "You bash, barge and hurt, but at the end you always compliment your opponent. You respect a man who battles you. You know what he's been through.'

Thanks to Mike M. and others for spotting the story.

Only 14 of Canada’s squad play in Europe, according to Rugby Canada’s 'In Touch' newsletter (by way of another Gainline.us reader). The US totals 7, undermining the assertion by Peter Thorburn and others that Canada are so much more ‘professional’ than the Eagles.

Halfback Kimball Kjar, who started all three Churchill Cup games before being dropped out of the World Cup squad, has signed on as an assistant coach with his alma mater, Brigham Young.

Comments

[TJ]

If USA Rugby does not define rugby to the media, or the sport's fan base is so enthusiastic and passionate that they define your sport to the media, then the media will always portray it in the most unflattering light. It is their nature and it makes for an interesting read to someone uninitiated to the topic. It sells papers.

USA Rugby doesn't have any idea on how to brand the game, and they haven't made an effort to do so unless you call the new logo a few years ago an effort to brand the game to a country that has no clue what it is.

USA Rugby has no fans. None. Guys that played the game in college and some club rugby and their girlfriends or wifes aren't a fan base that can define you to the media in a positive light. Most ex-rugby players like the representation portrayed by the media as tough fun loving pranksters, because 99% of rugby players in America are failed athletes. They loved another sport and did not succeed at it, then they found rugby and were most likely average at that too.

How does the media portray men's softball leagues, bowling and pool or darts? As not to be taken seriously because it is insular and recreational. How does the media portray surfing, skateboarding, beach volleyball and extreme sports? Cool, trendsetting, demanding, competitive and interesting. Why? Because they have fans that love it and not because they played it once. It is hard for the media to go to a beach volleyball match and see 10K people of all shapes and sizes watching the sport, saying they love it, know all the details and history about it and want to enthusiastically discuss it. If the media wrote a cynical article about that sport, it wouldn't sell papers and would anger readers that are fans.

So, USA Rugby needs to define the game to the media. Whoever let Hercus speak to the media was an idiot for not briefing him prior to stay on message, but that assumes that USA Rugby media relations has a message for him to stay on. Most likely the events at USA Rugby were similar to this, "OH MY GOD! Like the NY Times is totally into writing an article about rugby. Have them call Mike he is cool and has an accent. Plus he is soooooo cute. Like OH MY GOD THIS IS SO COOL!"

[performance]

TJ..best written piece ever on this site...USA Rugby should even be writing the message for him

[Chuck Norris]

Chuck Norris says - TJ should get his own blog, he understands rugby in America.

Now, all you losers that failed at American sports, then rugby, and now read this blog, go buy a Total Gym...and Christie, get me a diet coke.

[victor]

give up - play badminton!

[TJ]

Thanks for the compliments.

[Eagles Fan]

Good work on this one TJ, you hit alot of nails right on the head. Rugby is clearly misrepresented here in the US. More positive PR needs to be spread around about the sport. We are far more than a bunch of goons that get drunk and bash each others skulls in. Few outside of those involved in the sport know what it takes in term of training and dedication to play successful rugby.

Although have to diagree with your statement about most rugby players being failures in other sports. If you consider not becoming a professional being a failure, then I guess you are correct. But that is shortchanging millions of athletes over the course of the last 50+ years to say that they were failures because they never took home a paycheck from their respective sports. I personally take offense to that statement like that. I guess playing 20+ years in a sport and getting a college education out of it is failing. Same goes for that guy that has a remarkable HS football career, plays D-I football at a big school, has a solid career, gets an education, and discovers rugby later in life. Just because he's not in the NFL, doesn't mean he's a failure. It's not out of the question that many of us turned to rugby to find something different than what we spent our lives playing and in the process fell in love with rugby.

[TJ]

Failure is not about a paycheck. If you are 18 years old and can no longer play your sport at the collegiate level, then you have maxed out on your athletic ability in American. Not playing college baseball, football, wrestling, hockey, basketball, soccer, etc. in college or a farm system? You still have college club rugby. That is the reality for 99% of the rugby players in the USA. Rugby is a recreational sport like softball or basketball leagues. Which is fine, but there is not a level of play in the USA that is professional, or even really semi-professional.

Sure there are some exceptions like Luke Gross and Paul Emrick who played collegiate sports. Those are the guys that should have been interviewed for the NYT article. They should have also interviewed someone on the squad that picked up rugby in HS and let them tell the story of how they fell into the game at that level and the sport motivated them to go to college and now they are playing for their country.

USA Rugby should have managed this message and the article would have been about the future being bright for the USA at the international level because there are a ton of guys like these on the horizon.

These are the two most sensible ways for USA Rugby to improve on the international level; get more youth playing the game, and get collegiate athletes to pick up the game after their college athletic career is over. That message could have been in what is arguably our national newspaper, but the opportunity was wasted.

[Mike]

TJ,

While I agree with most of your posting consider this list of Eagles within the past 2 years and let me know where the failures occur. All of these player found rugby after college.

Carl Hansen- Played in the NFL for the Bears
Mike French - Div 1 Pac-10 Wrestling Champion
Dan Payne- Div 1 Wrestling All-American
Luke Gross- Div 1 Basketball Player
Mike Mangan- Div 2 Football Player
Henry Bloomfield - Div 1 Football player
Albert Tuipolotu- Div 1 Football player
Blake Burdette- Div 1 Football Player
Andy Ryland- Div 1 Football Player
Mike Palefau-Div 1 Football Player
Jason Pye- Div 2 Football player
Chris Ostentowski- Div 2 Football player

These are just off the top of my head.

Mike

[Jack McGonagle]

I can respect TJ's comments, but don't agree with them.

I was the Old Blue 7's Manager at the recent 7's Championships, and if anyone had been there, you'd have seen that "athletic failures" did not apply at that competition.

Old Blue athletes of note to somewhat complement Mike's list:

Mile Malan - All Ivy Brown running back, and NFL Pats and Bucs, and NFL Europe
Chris Carey (current OB 15's captain) - 2 time Columbia Univ Captain and All Ivy selection

That's just 2.

Problem with the interview is that it reinforces the typical collegiate exposure that non-rugby people have to rugby... and that's the "knucklehead rugby" attitudes that exist in lower Division rugby and college programs where being an idiot and drinking and partying are more important than the level of rugby that is played.

[TJ]

I said 99%. The USA has 28,457 Senior Male Players, so 1% would be 285. I think that is a realistic number of USA senior male rugby players that performed in their desired sport beyond HS level.

[Mike]

TJ,

Agreed but when the article you are referring to was about an Eagle and the people his is talking about are Eagles then the 285 (1%) would be who he is referencing.

One could argue that 99% of the participants in any sport are failures under your criteria. How many guys play in adult baseball, football, basketball and hockey leagues that were not good enough to play in the pros.

I like your write up with the exception of the oversight.

Mike

[TJ]

That is my point! USA Rugby let the article make the 1% look like they are just like the 99%, instead of speaking to the audience that could make the 1% grow to 2% (college athletes with no pro future and HS kids and their parents), and put a chink in the mostly true interpretation that the American public has about ruby.

Rugby is a recreational sport like adult league baseball, basketball, hockey, etc, and USA Rugby doesn't do a good job of defining it to the media as something more. If they do not do it nobody will, because there isn't a non-playing fan base out there defining it with their passion as something more.

The article put rugby in a bad light and reinforced what most of America thinks about rugby, which is mostly true, when hundreds of times every weeken America sees a bunch of guys running into each other at the local park or school with a few dozen family or friends on the sideline, or when a local bar has a bunch of guys making a racket and monopolizing the entire facility, or a guy goes to work with a black eye, when a college rugby players runs naked through the dorm with a rugby ball, etc, etc.

This was an opportunity to get the word out that there is a 1% out there that are capable to play professionally in foreign leagues, that there is a huge youth movement that are going to make rugby their #1 sport and change the game here in the USA. Instead USA Rugby did nothing and it is an article about meatheads and foreigners and whatever.

Rugby has always been about providing a level of play for every skill level player, and you guys shouldn't get upset when someone points out the reality 99% of rugby players are average athletes at best. Be realistic.

[James]

This is an interesting discussion, but having taken media training in a couple of jobs, you are completely at the mercy of of the reporter. I think the first line of Kurts excerpt tells you everything you want to know about the reporters view. If the reporter has an agenda (and he will often deny if you ask) you can say 95% really good things and only the 5% get quoted.

No doubt Hercus had talking points. No doubt he talked about them - he has to be one of the most savvy media people there is on the team. But the reporter already had the story written.

[Alan Petty]

While I think that TJ had a pretty good idea going at first, his point about "failures" at other sports picking up rugby is completely wrong. I can list several more international level players who also had collegiate football and/or NFL experience. I think that Mike challenged TJ on this point and was successful.

As far as the rank and file go, many prominant high school footballers who are top-flight athletes come out and play rugby, usually starting as something to in the off season, then make it their priority sport. Look at some of our best HS teams; Highland, Penn and Jesuit and you will see scholarship level athletes playing rugby.

It is a mistake to compare our sport to football's organization, basketball is much more accurate. Americans generally do not play football in pads recreationally, but they do play hoops often into their 60's. USARFU is in an impossible position of having to run the equivalant of the NBA and church league basketball at the same time. While they have made many odd errors, they have done a lot of things well.

[TJ]

Again you are talking about the 1% of the rugby community that are not just your run of the mill weekend jocks. Perhaps I have a higher standard for an athlete than most on this blog, and I assume that Thornburn is the same and maybe why he is getting so much flack.

Rugby in the USA is a recreational
sport. PERIOD!

The article was a chance to present the most professional side of the sport and the pathway to a brighter future, and it failed. That is my point.

[AA]

Not sure if this is the same article that was mentioned, but I figuered I would add this to the mix:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/08/16/sports/RUGBY.php
Can't wait to see the plan for us to get 1 Million rugby players in the US...

[clark]

I agree w TJ's point that US rugby is purely a recreational sport at this point in its life cycle.

Admittedly true also is that the domestic game today is played by athletes who pick up rugby after the reality that they can't make it in their "dream" sport comes true. Yes there are a select few who have picked up rugby at a young age and progressed through the US age group teams on to the National squad. Does this make a better story and shed the favorable perspective needed? Probably so. But until rugby turns the corner from being a cult/niche sport to being a 2nd tier corporate sponsored sport (like beach volleyball, major league lacrosse, or even texas hold'em poker) it will always be cast in the same drunken hooligan shadow by our mainstream media. US rugby can get there. How and why does the pre-eminent thug sport in the public eye (which wasn't even in existence before 1993), Mixed Martial Arts, become a giant whose pay-per-views surpass free MLB and NBA playoff games in the ratings?

The same big picture issue with US rugby is likely the catalyst for the poor press: the sport has no ROI here. It sickens me to see all the US-based firms' logos all over Super14 and Premiership jerseys. Ford, Nike, EDS, Canon, (is Philips a US firm?) and others are stitched boldly on the chest of our favorite players on a weekly basis.

Simple answer - our fielded product is not even comparable to that which garners big dollar sponsorship. Can we get there? Figure that out and you will be one remembered for the ages....

Clark Bernales
OMBAC div 1 head coach &
#1 fan of Ed Schram Sr.'S postings on Gainline

[clark]

I agree w TJ's point that US rugby is purely a recreational sport at this point in its life cycle.

Admittedly true also is that the domestic game today is played by athletes who pick up rugby after the reality that they can't make it in their "dream" sport comes true. Yes there are a select few who have picked up rugby at a young age and progressed through the US age group teams on to the National squad. Does this make a better story and shed the favorable perspective needed? Probably so. But until rugby turns the corner from being a cult/niche sport to being a 2nd tier corporate sponsored sport (like beach volleyball, major league lacrosse, or even texas hold'em poker) it will always be cast in the same drunken hooligan shadow by our mainstream media. US rugby can get there. How and why does the pre-eminent thug sport in the public eye (which wasn't even in existence before 1993), Mixed Martial Arts, become a giant whose pay-per-views surpass free MLB and NBA playoff games in the ratings?

The same big picture issue with US rugby is likely the catalyst for the poor press: the sport has no ROI here. It sickens me to see all the US-based firms' logos all over Super14 and Premiership jerseys. Ford, Nike, EDS, Canon, (is Philips a US firm?) and others are stitched boldly on the chest of our favorite players on a weekly basis.

Simple answer - our fielded product is not even comparable to that which garners big dollar sponsorship. Can we get there? Figure that out and you will be one remembered for the ages....

Clark Bernales
OMBAC div 1 head coach &
#1 fan of Ed Schram Sr.'S postings on Gainline

[Easterner]

TJ's points are interesting and caused me to reflect on some things. After doing so, I think his estimates may be slightly dated. In my reflection, I couldn't help but acknowledge that when I played college rugby in the late 1980s, TJ's "99% are failed athletes" comment was probably true. My college rugby team (now a top 20 D-1 team and maybe a top 50 D-1 team in the late 80s) was full of failed American athletes. They enjoyed playing rugby but didn't follow it much (which admittedly was very hard to do in the late 80s in the USA) and passionately followed their former sports (baseball, soccer and football primarily) and often dreamed about trying out for the college team in that sport, which in fact many had already done and either were cut or quick. A few guys played rugby and a varisty sport (wrestling fit around the rugby schedule fairly well, and our wrestling program, although D-1, was fairly weak) but for the most part the rugby players couldn't have played on any varsity program. Of course we had a few foreign players, and rugby was always their sport. And while good by our standards, I am certain that most of them had not been elite players back home. Personally, even though I started for 3 years on my college rugby A-side, I know full well I couldn't have made any varsity team. Painfull to admit perhaps, but true. That was also true of the vast majority of the rest of the rugby team, save for 1 or 2 gifted athletes who had played varsity sports (usually football) and didn't like the structure or had problems with a coach, so they quit and eventually found rugby. Now fast forward to the present. I am still involved in rugby as a 7s player. And in the process, I interact often with the players from my old college team, which I said is now a D-1 Top 20 rugby program. I even watch one or two of their collge 15s matches every year. In my opinion, as many as 10-20% of the guys on that team are D-1 varsity level athletes, compared to maybe 3% from my team in the late 80s. The difference is high school rugby. It has proliferated and while rugby scholarships are few and far between (although my old college now has one) many more quality athletes are now playing rugby in high school (often along with other sports). Sure, the best athletes will still go where the scholarship money is (usually not to rugby therefore) but others who could walk-on a varsity sport will often play rugby now because its a sport they played in high school and a sport that many follow passionately as fans. Look, I'm not saying that we are at a watershed moment here in the life of rugby in the USA, but in my observations we are making ground, at least in the quality of the college rugby athlete.

[Eagles Fan]

I know it is a bit off subject, but I thought it was interesting to see Mixed Martial Arts mentioned above. I've been thinking the same thing for years. I think rugby could learn a few things about the way to market itself to the American public. Dana White, the head of the UFC, is a rugby fan. I've seen him multiple times sporting Munster jerseys and other rugby wear. Maybe he could give a few pointers on how to help turn a fringe sport into a cash machine. MMA promotes and markets itself just as well, if not better, than the major sports.

The potential is absolutely there. There are so many elements in rugby that appeal to the American sporting fan. It just needs a unique and fresh approach to spark some enthusiasm from the gereral public.

[Chuck Norris]

Chuck Norris says - MMA is just like WWE, and American invention.

Rugby is not, and never will be, an American cultural sport. Never.

Rugby is a decidely Commonwealth game - if your money has the Queen's profile on it, you have sports clubs with rugby and cricket on offer.

Enjoy what we have. Chucks reads enough whining on this blog to think he is in England.

Chuck is not xenophobic. Chuck loves that the IRB sends funny talkers to help USA Rugby. Chuck also laughs at Americans that play a year of "rugby" and become experts.

Chuck has to sell some stuff on TV, kick a dirtbag's @ss, and check on Christie. Later.

[Fred]

re. TJ's comments:

Yes, those wanks at USAR don't have a clue about branding.

Let's relook the "failed" bit. Most of us are just "washed up" so to speak when we finish high school; we aren't big enough, or strong enough or fast enough to compete at the next level in our sport of choice. A biological fact that we can't overcome unless we want to juice. Fact is only .03% of HS basketball players make it to NBA..so that means that 99.97% are failed athletes?! and .08% of HS football players make it to NFL...again...99.92% are failed?! See the link.

http://www.ncaa.org/research/prob_of_competing/probability_of_competing2.html

I have not found any studies regarding Euro. grade school rugby athletes making the professional level, but it can't be much different than the 2 sports I mentioned here.

Oh, and thanks USAR for allowing the negative perpetuation of the sport. Yes, it's your fault; personal responsibility notwithstanding from Hercus. Professionalism goes beyond just getting paid, its also the responsibility to presentation of character and the profession to the public.

[msg]

Speaking of rugby in the U.S. - The world cup is right around the corner and I haven't seen one damn commercial on tv about it. I'm already angry that my country will ignore this great event.

If I was USA Rugby, I would be promoting the Eagles like hell. Here is your time... Just like women's soccer in '99 when Brandi tore off her shirt. Do something!!! I'm tired of seeing the Freaking Cup Stacking Championships on ESPN. Seriously!

[Corey brace]

So now that the US Eagles have proved themselves against England are all you anonymous negative Peter Thornburn bashers going to retract your words?
Doubt it.
There is so much negativity on this site- if you think you can do a better job -strap on your boots and give it a go-
otherwise shut the hell up and do what's best for USA Rugby support the guys and their efforts.

[Martin]

I like it and the background and colors make it easy to read.

[X-man]

I can find the prayer I want. I thank God for this website.n

[Elvis]

Lucky to find you, keep on the good workk guys! Best of luck.a

[Malcom]

made it .All information on this site is represented for users. A site iso

[Elvis]

I thank the Lord for giving us the gift of brilliant preachers!p